A plea to ‘do something’ falls on deaf ears

If the slaughter of children cannot bring a nation together, can anything?

The aftermath of the Florida massacre this year has further separated the non-United States into “so somethings” and “do nothings.”

CBS Sunday Morning commentator Faith Salie ended today’s broadcast with a plea to do something about the unchecked murders of children.

“This generation of young people — kids who have to perform ‘active shooter drills’ at school — has been mocked for its sensitivity, for needing “trigger warnings.” How can we blame them when they are not safe from actual triggers?

“No,” the “do nothings” replied.

  • Pej

    Sen. James Lankford, in response to Chuck Todd’s question “The AR-15…is this a hunting rifle in your opinion?”

    “Some actually do hunt with an AR-15 as well”. OMFG.

    And then goes on to pivot from the underlying issue:

    “But the pistol has still been the weapon of choice for murderers.”

    Can’t even talk about the ISSUE AT HAND for more than a few seconds without trying to change the subject. If the shooter had used a PISTOL to kill 17 people, would he be more inclined to “do something” so he didn’t impact his hunting constituency?

    I give the kids who did the pol-show circuit this morning massive credit for sticking to their message, calling out the politicians DIRECTLY and EXPLICITLY. I just hope they can get them to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING.

  • Rob

    Good to see that Cadet Bone Spurs “did something” about establishing sane gun laws – he blamed the Democrats for not enacting any…

    • jon

      To be fair the democrats had control over both chambers and the white house…
      Any party with that kind of control could do what ever they’d like… they could for instance:
      -fix healthcare- bad example, too hard…
      -Balance the budget- bad example, to hard…
      -Impeach a corrupt president- bad example, to hard…
      -Impose reasonable immigration laws- bad example, to hard…
      -Impose reasonable gun control- bad example, to hard…

      Who knew governing could be so hard!

      • emersonpie

        Democrats had 60 votes in the Senate for at most 18 months in 2009-2010, but in reality, the Tea Party uproar of the summer of 2010 made it politically difficult to complete two controversial bills during that time (both ACA and gun control). Anyway, plenty of Democrats are beholden to the NRA and their single-issue voters. Even if a candidate shuns a direct donation, the NRA will attack with independent expenditures. I wonder if there would have been 60 votes for gun control measures.

      • Rob

        Lots of retrograde Dems are NRA stooges, but the Dems as a party have never had joint control of Congress and White House for a long enough period to pass gun meaningful gun legislation.

  • Gary F

    Should the FBI start following through on people like Cruz? That’s doing something.

    Many of the shooters passed NICS checks even though they probably should be in the database. http://www.fixnics.org. that’s doing something.

    Ohio schools are doing something.
    http://www.fastersaveslives.org.

  • Gary F

    So “doing something” now means imposing more gun restrictions on the 99% of gun owning population and not addressing the one percent doing the crime.

    • kevins

      Perhaps like not selling semi-autos at gun shows. PS Gary, these are firearms we are talking about. The 99% DOES NOT MATTER when there is one with a gun aimed at you, me, my granddaughter.

      Tired old arguments and scare tactics about the government removing our liberties, also DO NOT MATTER when one with a gun has it aimed at my wife, or yours. Dead by firearm moots the liberty question.

      • Gary F

        When “all” the guns are outlawed and “bought back”, the same person who would want to shoot you, or me, or your granddaughter, will still have guns.

        Prohibition didn’t stop the people who wanted to drink alcohol from drinking alcohol.

        • kevins

          Gary, your post begs the question. No one wants to outlaw all guns. Yet another tired, untrue and perverse argument to do nothing.

          • Gary F

            Ok, just outlaw the AR. How do you get back the million in circulation? Think the people that want to do harm will “sell theirs back”? How can you have a gun buyback if they never owned it in the first place?

          • kevins

            You are very bright and task oriented…I nominate you for a Presidential Commission to accomplish the goal. We for the most part eradicated tuberculosis, and smallpox no longer exists ON EARTH but I for one will not hold my breath that AR-like weapons will be banned. Politics you know.

          • >>I for one will not hold my breath that AR-like weapons will be banned.<<

            They were at one point not too long ago.

          • theoacme

            Easy, say that any person in the possession of an AR-15 that isn’t an active duty member of the armed forces that possesses it under the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is guilty of treason, and all such treasonous possessors of AR-15’s shall be liable to an immediate mandatory sentence of death, and a mandatory fine of no less than $100 million, such fines overriding any last will and testament of any such traitors, and such fines also overriding the rights of any creditors of any such traitors as well.

          • How about smaller clips so in the time he has to reload, a guard or cop can get a shot off? Or a football coach could rush him without getting killed?

          • Gary F

            So if there are one million ARs in circulation, some sources say up to three million, no AR owner has just one 30 round magazine. They take too long to fill, so most recreational shooters have at least two or three and most likely a half dozen. That means at last 2 million but more like five million in circulation, so you really think lives will be saved by demanding lower magazine sizes?

          • I think it’s possible one will be.

            Also, the jollies you get at the range aren’t even remotely important or relevant to me compared to a dead kid.

          • jon

            Last week it didn’t matter how much you could put into a magazine because you could just change them out in a second or two… now it’s impossible to get all the high cap magazines back because the snowflake ammo sexual aren’t willing to give up their toys.

            The longer we wait to tell manufactures and sellers that they can’t make them or sell them the more of them we have to find out there… So your delaying tactic of saying “it’s impossible” [editorial add the luke skywalker whine] just makes the issue worse, and leads to more deaths.

            As for “there are too many to effectively get them all back”
            The more you drag your feet the more there are out there… the more I blame the people dragging their feet for the problem.
            The same people cheered as the assault weapons ban expired, so perhaps those people who let the cat out of the bag should be responsible for putting the cat back in the bag….
            If only those people had even the slightest comprehensions of what “responsible” looks like we might be able to trust them with such a reasonable task… but they don’t they are spoiled children angry about having to give up a toy because it kills people! Meanwhile the actual children, the one I hear from the same people are spoiled and the cause of the problem, are rallying, and pushing for something to be done.

          • Yep. The same people who are saying “there’s too many guns out there” are the same people who filibustered and blocked and protested ANY limit on them, thus allowing them to proliferate.

            And now they’re saying, “oh, hey, there’s too many out there now.”

            But, at least they acknowledge there’s too many out there. That’s a start.

          • Jerry

            They opened the barn door and let the cows out, and are now saying we shouldn’t bother trying to get them back in.

          • BJ

            > so you really think lives will be saved by demanding lower magazine sizes?

            Clearly you don’t.

          • >> so you really think lives will be saved by demanding lower magazine sizes?<<

            That seemed to happen when the "High-Cap Magazine" ban was in effect. Once that ban was lifted, the number of mass shootings went up.

          • PaulMN

            Current estimates are that there 5 – 10 million AR 15’s that have been sold in the US. The AR 15 has been the single most popular rifle sold in the US for the past several years.

          • PaulMN

            How small? 10 rounds? 5 rounds? 1 round? And how would you arrive at that number?

          • BJ

            How about we stop selling before there are 2 million in circulation?

            The Florida shooter bought his legally, so it’s fair to say if it wasn’t legally available he would not have one?

    • Ickster

      Here’s a question: Do you honestly think if the Framers could see what was going on today, they’d leave the wording of the Second Amendment unchanged?

      • PaulMN

        I think the Framers would be appalled at the behaviors/values/character that we have in modern America.

        • rallysocks

          Some of the Framers actually owned other people…not winning in the morality wars if you ask me.

    • Rob

      I guess we shouldn’t have laws against speeding and other vehicle-related violations, since it’s such a small percentage of drivers who commit the infractions.

  • Guest

    Gun Violence = suicide + crime + mass shooting

    Gun registration is not effective, there are 300 million weapons in the US and I don’t see registration slowing down any of the 3 elements of gun violence as theft and illegal sales will always be around. However, it will help so lets do it anyway, even for Grandpa giving his grandson the family shotgun.

    OK, how about Banning “Assault Rifles”. One style won’t do much, we’d have to ban all magazine fed rifles as they can easily find a style that kills with the same volume of “Assault Rifle” A pump-action or lever-action can also have almost the same rate of fire so lets force everyone to single-shot. OK, so now all new deer hunting and shotguns will be single shot.

    Now that we have taken two BIG steps, tell me what the actual impact will be on suicide or crime or mass shootings…..given that somebody who thinks killing a school full of kids will find a way to one of the 300 million existing weapons.

    • kevins

      This is little more than an elaborate rationalization for doing nothing. The NRA has successfully manipulated politicians and public policy by arguing the same.

      This and similar arguments (Gee if only one of the students had a gun…) do nothing other than maintain the status quo, which is what gunaholics want.

      • Guest

        OK, you are right. Now tell me one proposal that would be EFFECTIVE.

        • kevins

          A tax on gun and ammo sales, dedicated to mental health research and education (related to gun violence), a law that makes gun manufacturers liable for firearm deaths, a ban on large ammo magazines, computer driven activation codes for activating the firearm (a password..like everyone’s bank account), universal background checks for gun purchases..and on and on.

          I already understand that humans (in terms of gun deaths, seemingly a lot of Americans), will continue to kill each other, and criminals have ALWAYS been good at hurting others for their own advantage, but one must start somewhere. I also understand that because of the NRA and similar organizations, any rational new efforts will be difficult, as if the NRA is really no better that the criminals.

        • Smaller magazines.

          • scott

            Background checks for handguns are very tight, where as checks for rifles and shotguns not so. Two years ago a bought a 45 Cal. 1911 semi-auto pistol, I had to call the St. Louis Co. Courthouse to have them send me an application to purchase a handgun. Then I had to bring it to them in person with a photo ID. it took a good 2 weeks to get a permit to by the hand gun. I am sure they looked at everything including social media pots.
            The next year I bought a 12ga semi-auto tactical shotgun( I fish salmon in S.E. AK, lot of Brown Bears) That background check took 20 mn. If the checks for long guns was as tight as handguns a lot of people would not be able to purchase any gun.
            Such as that guy in FL.
            I

        • emersonpie

          Mandatory, thorough background check that includes face-to-face interview with trained professional. Taxes on weapons and ammo sales to pay for it.

    • KTN

      I wonder if your response would be so smug had you seen images of the little children blown apart by an AR at Sandy Hook (but maybe you fetishize that sort of thing).
      The funny thing about gun nuts is that they are unable to intelligently make a claim – other than the direct line between enhanced waiting periods leading to confiscation. Seems that’s all you know – pity.

      • Guest

        Sorry to come across as smug. A child shot is a horrible tragedy.

        I am pointing out all this policy talk is merely nibbling at the edges of the problem.

        Nothing I have heard will change the future when the next person thinks shooting up a school full of kids is a good idea……sigh 🙁

    • So you’re saying nothing can be done?

  • AL287

    “This generation of young people — kids who have to perform ‘active
    shooter drills’ at school — has been mocked for its sensitivity, for
    needing “trigger warnings.”

    Real life has an odd way of smacking you in the face when you least expect it and these young people have no intention of letting this issue quietly slip away or get lost in political double talk.

    A number of these teens will be of voting age for the midterms. That’s enough to swing an election. It will also swing their parents’ votes as well.

    Just as voter anger put the Republicans in control of the White House and both houses of Congress, it can just as easily swing control in the other direction.

    Historically, the midterms have returned control to the minority party of one or both houses somewhat consistently.

    We can only hope that history will repeat itself in 2018.

  • Guest

    OK, let us ban large magazines. Now time how fast a guy can get off 100 shots with a ten 10 round magazines versus four 30 round magazines. YES, it helps, but the future won’t change.

    Also put in universal background checks and even add a hold for the duration of protective court orders and mental health therapist recommendations. Now tell me how much of a problem will remain for suicide, crime and mass shootings…..again remember there are more guns than people right now in the USA.

    I am wishing I knew of an EFFECTIVE solution. However both sides are arguing over policy that won’t change the future.

    • jon

      //Yes, it helps

      If it helps, why wouldn’t we do it.

      Right now we are in bad shape, and if we can make even small incremental improvements maybe our children won’t be safe from gun violence, nor theirs, but maybe in a few generations they can be… and the thing that keeps pushing the date when that happens out further is our unwillingness to act now.

  • Rob

    There are lots of practical things that could be done to make gun ownership more responsible while not traducing the 2nd Amendment. Of course, these would require moral courage from a critical mass of legislators, but here goes:

    As a handgun owner with a MN permit to carry, I would support laws that require all gun purchases to be through authorized ATF-approved commercial sellers only, and all guns would be required to be registered and licensed. A background check and proof of completion of a comprehensive ATF-approved safety and training course would be required for any sale. The new owner would not be allowed to receive the weapon until cleared by the background check. Record of the approved sale would be sent by the seller to the state.

    It would be a Federal felony to sell any gun through a private sale. No gun sales would be permitted at gun shows.

    Proof of ownership via registered/licensed sale would be necessary for all ammunition purchases, and sales of extremely large ammo purchases would be prohibited.

    I can hear the “cold dead hands” crowd screaming about how these requirements would infringe on the 2nd Amendment, but none of these suggestions takes away the right to responsibly possess and utilize a gun.

    We need to get away from the mentality that if you can fog a mirror, it’s your god-given right to be strapped.

    • PaulMN

      I have read many “common sense” gun-control proposals, but in the end we have to ask ourselves “How would this proposal have prevented the latest gun violence tragedy?”. I want the gun violence to stop as much as the next person. Knee-jerk reactions don’t help and can lead to a false sense that we are actually addressing the issue in a meaningful way. Please show how your proposal would have prevented this latest specific tragedy.

      • Why only ask if proposals would have prevented THE LATEST school shooting?

        • PaulMN

          Your point is well taken. Then choose any school shooting (or any act of gun violence for that matter) and ask “How would this proposal have prevented that gun violence tragedy?”

  • Gary F

    So, “doing something”, means gun control?

    • We have some gun control now. “Doing something” means, you know, doing something to stem the systemic killing of children.

      In the bigger picture, it also means maybe loving kids just…a.. liiiiiittttttle….biiiiit…. more than loving guns.

      which is why any idea will go nowhere.

      • Gary F

        the proposed gun control will not save any kids, it just makes you feel like you are doing something.

        • Where’s the next shooting going to be? You seem to have a certainty about these things.

        • kevins

          Again, this is the line from the NRA and has never been true. Helplessness in this matter will insure more killings.

  • Frank

    Here’s a problem:

    “The only person trained and armed to fight back against an assailant at Stoneman Douglas is its one school resource officer, a Broward Sheriff’s deputy funded by the city of Parkland. But Maxwell said she doesn’t think he was on campus when the shooting happened.

    “I have been told by a couple of sources that the SRO was either called off campus responding to something happening or it could have been his day off,” she said. ”

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-20180215-story.html

    Unacceptable.

    Having a trained protector in the schools will stop this from happening, or at the very least keep a crazed killer from wandering around at will until the posse arrives.

    But of course for that to work, they have to remain at their duty post.

    This kid had a plan. He knew how to disable the automatic lock-down (pull fire alarm), knew when the gates would be open, knew when classes changed. Think he might have known when officer friendly was gone?

    And where the heck was he?

    This is not hard.

    • I think this school had three stories. Suppose the guy with AR-15 was on the third floor and the security officer was on the first floor. How many kids could a person kill in the time it would take the S.O. to get to the third floor?

      • Frank

        So put one on each floor. How much is a kids life worth?

        Look, it is a proven fact that the presence of armed protectors deters nut case shooters.

        Aren’t you the fellow demanding we do Something? Well, let’s get to it.

        • kevins

          Let me see if I understand what you are saying..because some in our society have chosen to use firearms to kill children, we should fill the schools, day cares, malls and concert venues with trained and armed “protectors”, and that would keep similar mass shootings from happening again…is that it?

          • Frank

            Yes. That is it. It’s the very best option, because it has been proven to work.

          • kevins

            Interesting. You are guaranteeing it. If that was anything but a fantasy, I would wholeheartedly support you, but there is a bigger point. You are saying that our society has devolved into defending itself (with guns) against itself. No trust, no domestic tranquility, no safety without armed “protectors”. It feels like you have given up on a civilized society. I have not.

          • Frank

            That’s your choice. Armed protectors are effective. I’ve posted a few examples; I could fill the page with them.

            I choose to protect kids, even at the risk of hurting your feelings.

          • kevins

            You are a saint. But you should read my post before responding.

          • Frank

            Read it. Still not very concerned about your feelings. Im sorry.

          • Rob

            Are you a trained and armed school security officer who is currently working at a school? Or are you undergoing training to be an authorized SSO, with the intention of working in a school? If not, your statement that //I choose to protect kids// is an empty boast.

          • Frank

            That is a ridiculous statement. No kidding.

            Choosing to employ armed protectors is choosing to protect kids. Not difficult.

          • Rob

            You’d support spending the billions in taxpayer dollars every year, ad infinitum, that such an initiative would require?

          • Frank

            Yes. Because:

            A. It would work, immediately.

            And

            B. We’re already pouring billions I to the public schools, be nice to see an actual return on the investment for a change.

          • Rob

            The Repubs have shown they aren’t really afraid of debt and deficits; they were only scared of them when an African American Dem was in the White House. So maybe this would be a good year to have La Pierre float a modified proposal to Congress for paid, professional school security for all schools – and offer to have the NRA kick-start it with a $100 million donation.

          • Frank

            Most folks never got the pathos of the “Eddie Haskell” character. Bravo sir, bravo.

        • Rob

          //How much is a kid’s life worth?// Excellent question for the NRA’s Congressional stooges.

          • Frank

            Im betting everyone would agree they’re worth the cost of armed protection. You?

          • Rob

            If the NRA’s legislative toadies agreed to fund such an initiative, we’d all be gobsmacked.

          • Frank

            Prepare to be smacked in your gobs.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/us/nra-calls-for-armed-guards-at-schools.html

            I’m ready to put pressure on to see it happen; You?

          • Rob

            Didn’t see anything in the article that indicated La Pierre would commit to paying the full freight for the program, year-in, year out. I’m also not big on armed volunteers as security in schools, no matter how well trained they are

  • Frank

    Why is it we never hear the stories where the presence of armed protectors stopped school shootings?

    https://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/gudger.asp

    Everyone wants to doooooo something. Well here’s a proven tactic that is within our means. Something no one would object to. Something that will have an immediate effect. Why are there not armed protectors in all of our schools?

    The Merwyns liquor store at Broadway and Lindale has 24 hour armed guard, for crying out loud.

    • Jack

      More guns is not the answer.

    • Rob

      So that more kids can sit next to a school officer and accidentally discharge his/her holstered weapon?

    • That whole link is based on “news accounts”.

      • Frank

        So what is your point?

    • jon

      Cost of 100K armed guards (one for every public school in the country) is going to run about $3.7 billion… that for 1 armed guard, with a pistol, up against whatever armory some one can carry into a school…

      Cost of telling people they can’t sell/purchase, or transport semi automatic rifles with high capacity magazines… $0… ideas from the party of fiscal responsibility.

      Sure there will be some non-compliance, and existing law enforcement will probably be involved in that, but the majority of gun stores and manufactures would rather not risk being shut down for selling items that are restricted…

      • Frank

        Armed guards don’t cost $100k per year. We know their presence stops these shooters.

        Your thirst for other’s constitutional rights will never happen. Here’s a solution that’s ready to go.

        • jon

          No one suggested they cost $100k per year… I went with a meager $37K per year… times 100K schools… is $3.7 billion for 1 guard for each school… and down below you wanted multiple per school… I sure hope you plan on paying for them.

          • Frank

            How much is the budget for MN public schools…last time I checked, it was 42% of the total budget for the State.

            Here’s an expenditure everyone will agree is worth the cost.

          • kevins

            Everyone? Not likely. And BTW, protecting children does not imply “disarming” the public. More of the same tired, false rationalizations of the NRA Frank.

          • Frank

            The NRA does not speak for me. This is Frank speaking.

            Everything I’ve seen from the left on this subject, is doomed to fail. Smaller magazines? They’ll carry more. (In WWII, our main battle rifle had a 10 round capacity). Background checks? We have em.

            Here is a solution that is proven to work, but you refuse.

          • kevins

            See below.

          • >>In WWII, our main battle rifle had a 10 round capacity<<

            8 rounds. How did you not know this?

          • Frank

            You are correct sir! I stand corrected. 8 rounds.

          • Rob

            Wasn’t aware the Garand M1 had a 10-round clip

          • Frank

            The Garand holds 8 rounds. I misspoke, was corrected and we moved on 4 hours ago.

          • kevins

            Now that I re-read your post above, I think I agree with someone above who thought you just might be a professional spokesperson for the gun lobby. Can you donate a month’s worth of you revenue to a school so they can hire someone with a gun?

          • Frank

            Well, now we’re completely off the rails. Was always just a metter of time, I saw right away.

          • kevins

            You are all knowing Frank. Hope your ideas get represented in legislation, with those pesky funding details made explicit. Then folks in Minnesota can vote their values. Do you think the sponsors of the bill will frame it as a money versus child safety issue as you have? It might actually be easier to fund research on how to tweek the background check system such that there are fewer false negatives. Would you buy in on that?

          • Frank

            What research? There are no false negatives. Either you have a record of felony, a domestic abuse or mental illness, or you don’t.

            The problem is getting that information into the NICS system. Many places (the military for instance) do not report these things to the database.

            Also, we now have states like California that are pardoning convicted felons to keep federal law enforcement from following up on outstanding offenses, such as illegal entry into the country. That includes in at least one case, a man convicted of gang and gun related crimes. He won’t show up on the NICS system now.

            That should change; it’s not that difficult. Wouldn’t you agree?

          • kevins

            Let me try to understand..either you have a mental illness or you don’t. It’s that simple in a world that is black and white. BTW, the Florida HS shooter was a false negative when it comes to being allowed to purchase a firearm. Yes Frank, false negatives do exist.

          • >>I think I agree with someone above who thought you just might be a professional spokesperson for the gun lobby. <<

            His rationale and arguments are in lockstep with the NRA…

          • jon

            I think it has already been demonstrated that you are wrong, every one does not agree.

          • Frank

            So, you are willing to trade lives for a few bucks? I admire your honesty, but I think you’re in the minority on this.

          • jon

            … So opting for a $0 solution instead of a $3.7 billion+ solution means I’m trading lives for money rather than opposing wasteful spending that really won’t accomplish much…

            But if you aren’t willing to trade lives for money, get on the phone call your representatives and tell them you support universal health care… if we stop kidding ourselves we’ll see that trading lives for money has been the business of government for decades.

          • Frank

            Nice red herring you have there, buddy. We’re discussing school security; one topic at a time, OK?

          • jon

            Ok, one topic at a time…
            You know what stops a bad guy with a gun?
            Not giving the bad guy a gun!
            cost $0.

            So why do you want to arm “bad guys” and then arm “good guys”… so they can have shootouts in schools?

          • Frank

            What in the hell are you talking about? How are you proposing to keep bad guys from arming themselves? I’m all ears.

          • jon

            No you aren’t…. you might think you are, but you’ve demonstrated here multiple times that you aren’t.

            It’s not worth my time to start documenting all the things you’ve already read and dismissed because it’s not a cure, it’s a prevention, and you opted to oppose prevention.

          • Frank

            You’re right. I’ve read plenty enough. Because I’m a pragmatic, common sense guy who wants to keep kids safe, I’m proposing a solution that has worked almost every time it’s been put into effect.

            But, it doesn’t fulfill the left’s political agenda, so it’s not good enough.

          • RBHolb

            Elected officials are doing that every day: Trading lives for (more than) a few bucks in campaign contributions from the NRA.

          • Frank

            The NRA elects conservative politicians. That’s the reason the left heaps hate on them. It’s also the reason the left ignores the common sense, proven solutions anyone proposes.

            The constant zombie drum beat “NRA, NRA” is facile, unproductive, and will only ensure they get hundreds of millions more donations.

          • RBHolb

            Right, let’s not let the NRA own any of this. Let’s not point the blame at them for the rash of guns flooding the streets. Let’s not have them held accountable for their relentless lobbying against either effective gun control measures or them means to enforce them. Let’s not have them answer for the utterly predictable consequences of the policies they advocate.

            Instead, let’s keep up the drumbeat chant of “Oh, you liberals!” Let’s make the patently absurd argument that criticizing the NRA is just going to help them because a bunch of ignorant yahoos are going to rush to their defense. Let’s dismiss any ideas other than making the environment our children inhabit more lethal as “ineffective.”

          • Frank

            The NRA does not own any of this.

            They have stood in favor of regulation that makes sense, will have an effect. Things that do not include restricting our right to bear arms, so are non-starters for the left.

            Look, we can wave our flags all day. But the topic here was doing something to stop school shootings.

            I’ve presented a solution that is proven. It has worked every time it’s been used. Some ignorant yahoos reject that in favor of mounting a political campaign that is 100% guaranteed to do nothing to stop violence. We can smell what those yahoos are cooking, trust me.

          • kevins

            Interesting phrasing..”The NRA elects conservative politicians..” May be more true than one thinks in some states.

            The NRA is also responsible for supporting legal and public policy that has set Americans against each other, has reduced life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to gun possession, has conned politicians into enacting laws that ban the CDC from researching a significant cause of death, and has perpetuated falsehoods such as the government wanting to take away everyone’s guns. These things are fundamentally immoral, so if you want to donate to the NRA, have at it..it is your form of hate.

          • Frank

            Everything you’ve said, applies to Planned Parenthood.

            But for all the invective tossed back and forth, gun possession is actually enumerated in the constitution by name, where abortion was dug up in there as a freedom.

            So be it. They are constitutionally protected rights.

            So how about we work on something we can do, like putting people in place to protect our kids?

          • kevins

            No, no it doesn’t apply to Planned Parenthood. That is just another tired and false argument, and equating the NRA and PP only works if you know not what they do. You seem intelligent, but is it convenient? niave? manipiulative? of you assert that all PP does is abortions. Also, until men can get pregnant, perhaps men should not vote on women’s health policy. (I know, I know, that would be unconstitutional, but it makes as much sense as needing an AR for hunting).

            I am eager to join with you however in promoting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and given your invocation of the 2nd Amendment, how about anyone buying a gun has to actually join a well regulated militia. Then we could save the mega-amounts of money you need for armed protectors in schools, malls etc. by having the militia members rotate shifts. The NRA would get behind that wouldn’t they?

          • Frank

            Everyone knows what planned parenthood does. They are every bit as divisive to the right as the NRA is to the left.

            In order to enjoy Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, doesn’t one need to be born, first? Yes they do. You really eager to join with me however in promoting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Enough said about that.

            The SCOTUS has ruled, twice, on the interpretation of militia as pertains the 2nd amendment. It is as firmly established in law as Roe. Further arguments about either are a waste of time.

            But I get it. At least for those that have responded to my comments here, nothing less than more gun laws will suffice. So nothing will happen.

            well no, that’s not true.

            There is some twisted person out there already planning to attack a bunch of defenseless kids. Because they are defenseless.

          • kevins

            Right…bring on the well regulated militia, but sorry, that still has nothing to do with Planned Parenthood.

          • Frank

            You seem intelligent, but is it convenient? niave? manipiulative? of you to completely ignore the indisputable facts? Once again, the left brought the well regulated militia argument to SCOTUS; twice. It failed.

            PP operates under the same constitution that guarantees our right to bear arms.

          • kevins

            Bummer, no militia protectors in the schools? It apparently only exists as words in the 2A that mean nothing. No one wants to take away your right to bear arms, but some (not you of course) want to take away a woman’s right to make decisions about her own body. Ironic bigly. Just an aside, if gun manufacturers were held liable for their products (like tobacco companies)…nah, what was I thinking, that young man in Florida would still have somehow gotten an extra key to the family gun safe.

          • crystals

            I encourage you to spend some time studying school budgets, and then share with what you’re willing to cut in order to fund armed guards in every school. I’d be very interested in your answer.

          • Frank

            Oh boy. I could really enjoy that discussion. I bet I could cut 1/3 out of each school budget without affecting academics at all.

            But that would lead us down a rabbit hole. For now, let’s just say we will need to pay for security.

          • crystals

            So, I actually DO spend time with school budgets which is why I am pushing you to do it – because I think your ideas of what they contain are quite different from what they actually do. And your grand idea of putting an armed guard on every floor of every building is going to go nowhere without billions of dollars, so I think you’re dodging the point by blithely imagining that you can easily find that kind of money in existing school funding.

          • Frank

            Once again; “For now, let’s just say we will need to pay for security.”

            We can fight about ridding the schools of all the socio-economic clap trap that costs billions, later. Let’s just stop nuts from shooting the place up, OK?

          • crystals

            Good grief. Obviously that’s what we’re talking about here – it’s just that very few people are agreeing with how you think that should be done. Please don’t try and make it sound like the rest of us aren’t interested in stopping the violence.

          • Frank

            You are demanding solutions (more laws) that have proven to be utter failures. I propose one that has a proven history of success, and you all reject it out of hand, because it doesn’t fulfill your political ambitions.

            The conclusion I’m left to draw is clear.

          • jon

            in the 1920’s you could purchase a fully automatic thompson submachine gun with a canister magazine.
            The thompson is arguably a more effective killing machine than an Ar-15.

            Yet after legislation was passed regulating the ownership of fully automatic weapons we’ve not seen them used in shootings…

            So tell me again how you’ve seen no evidence of laws working? Did you see a machine gun being used to shoot people recently?

            What you’ve see is no evidence of functional laws being passed.

          • Frank

            Ah yes, the Thompson gun.

            Well, even when they were available, they were way to expensive to own. Gangsters used to steal them from police armories.

            Fully automatic weapons are still ridiculously expensive to buy and to shoot. And that is why you don’t see more of them on the street.

          • jon

            They costs about as much as a well equipped AR-15 after adjusting for inflation…

          • Frank

            BS. A fully automatic Thompson will set you back a minimum of $20k.

            Genuine old models are up around $50k
            https://www.gunsamerica.com/965504796/1928-Savage-Commerical-SMG-C-R.htm?isPartner=false

            A genuine, fully automatic, modern assault rifle can’t be had for less than $10k

            I can buy a civilian AR and hang as much stuff on it as it will hold for about $1k.

          • jon

            I’d be very impressed if that link was to a 1920’s listing for a thompson…
            *click*
            Seeing as how it is not I’m unclear as to what you are trying to prove about the cost of a thomson in 1920… (about $200)

          • Frank

            A Ford automobile was $393 in 1922.
            http://www.1920-30.com/automobiles/1922-car-prices.html

            “All the neighbor’s are sporting Thompson subs, but we could really use a car.

            Do we go for the Thompson sub, or the car? Darned it’s a toss up, Mavis!”

          • crystals

            I feel pretty good about what side of history I’ll be on.
            Have a nice day, Frank!

          • Rob

            Non-unionized, benefits-free robot teachers as a cost-cutting measure?

          • Jay T. Berken

            Do not take money from my kids education Frank.

          • Frank

            “Education”. Is that what you think is going on in there? Good for you.

          • Jay T. Berken

            You mock Frank, but remember who will be taking care of you and paying your bills as you get older…

          • Frank

            I’m as serious as I could ever be. Im well informed of what is going on, which is why I enrolled all my kids in a private school when the oldest was in the 4th grade.

            I could, without effort, reduce the average Twin Cities school budget by 1/3 without touching academic curriculums.

            The American public school system is a sad mess, and that’s no joke.

            FWIW, no one will ever pay my bills but me and my wife.

          • Jay T. Berken

            It is interesting, I had heard this very comment, “I’m well informed what is going on”, by a person that is very close to me. I was scared to ask what they see is going on in fear of really finding out how lonely they really were. “No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, U.S. is the less”

            So god bless you Frank that you have to resources to enroll your kids in private school Frank. I hope you are happy with your American dream, but I call b.s. that you do or will not need help with paying your bills. Unless you are completely cut off financially from the U.S. economy, you will suck from the teet of the American ‘welfare’ system whether through Medicare, Social Security or the American education system to educate workers to feed the very stocks that you rely on for income. “Because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

          • Frank

            “you will suck from the teet of the American ‘welfare’ system whether through Medicare, Social Security or the American education system”

            I dont think you understand what welfare is, Mr. Berken. I was forced to pay into Medicare and SSI; forced.

            I expect to get nothing in return for either of those forced confiscations, and have planned accordingly.

            And as I’ve said, I have already gotten nothing from my huge “investment” in public ed, but then again, that’s also true of the parents of tens of thousands of kids who either fail to graduate, or were just passed through them with minimal educations.

          • Come back, gentlemen. You’ve run off the track.

          • Jay T. Berken

            “Here’s an expenditure everyone will agree is worth the cost.”

            Are you a tax and spend liberal! Because I do not want to take any of the money away instructional materials, teacher and school salaries for my children. I want the best school experience for them. Period.

            Frank, get a petition going to send to the President and Congress to come up with extra funding for armed guards, I’ll sign it. Do not take money away from my children’s education.

      • Frank

        “Sure there will be some non-compliance, and existing law enforcement will probably be involved in that…”

        So, you’re perfectly willing to set the cops chasing heretofore law abiding citizens, but putting some in the way of crazed nutjobs, intent on slaughtering kids is out of the question?

        Let’s roll that out and quietly look at it a bit, shall We?

        • jon

          //So, you’re perfectly willing to set the cops chasing heretofore law abiding citizens

          “heretofore law abiding citizens” = Criminals, every convicted felon was a law abiding citizen right up to the moment they broke the law. (seriously I have no idea why the pro-gun movement is so unabashedly pro-criminal…)

          If you don’t think the police should be dealing with criminals… then we have nothing more to talk about.

          • Frank

            You are proposing to create a brand new class of criminals, tens of millions of them, from people who will have done nothing but refuse to disarm themselves.

            You said that carried $0 cost. Besides being ridiculously incorrect, it’s historically blind.

            Your dreams would be very familiar to anyone that survived Mao’s cultural revolution; they paid plenty, buddy.

            And BTW, to be clear, you don’t see these spree killers as criminals? Fascinating, love to hear more about that.

          • jon

            I would also love to hear more about my opinions… however I’m apparently not as well informed on them as you are… please tell me how do I see shooters as not criminals?

            actually… don’t bother… I’ve got enough crazy in my life for a while…

          • Frank

            Roger that!

    • crystals

      A liquor store is basically one big room. Schools are tens or hundreds of rooms, so unless you are proposing having an armed person in each and every room this “idea” isn’t going to solve the problem or eliminate the risk of school shootings.

      And as a former teacher, it’s also concerning to me that somehow turning our schools into militarized zones is seen as a better solution than actual gun control.

      • Frank

        The public schools have been militarized zones for decades.

        Your reductio ad absurdum argument is facile. Seems to me, that any solution that doesnt include disarming the public will not suffice for many on the left. That’s too bad, because it’s the one that has zero chance of happening.

        • crystals

          The public schools have been militarized zones for decades.//

          How so?

          • Frank
          • crystals

            I just read your link from 1997, and it does not answer my question.

          • Frank

            OK. We have been installing metal detectors for decades. Both to keep the kids from killing one another, and to keep outside nut cases from killing the kids.

            Our very worst schools have had armed SRO’s for at least that long.

            That’s a militarized environment.

          • crystals

            For starters, that’s not actually what your article says. But more to the point: I find it fascinating that you’d rather require our kids go through metal detectors and be surrounded by armed guards at school than to change anything about our existing gun laws.

            I’d love to watch the kids from Florida who are leading the charge have a few words with you. (But fortunately, they have bigger & more important work to do.)

          • Frank

            We have gun laws; reams of them. They have not stopped determined nutjobs, and adding new ones won’t.

            If you really care about stopping the carnage; if it’s not really just left against NRA politics, take some time to educate yourself on what the laws are today.

            Here is an interesting essay, from a UCLA prof that studies these things.

            http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-winkler-folly-of-assault-weapon-ban-20151211-story.html

            Let it lead you to further reading. Knowledge is a wonderful, soothing friend.

          • crystals

            Frank, dear sweet mansplaining Frank, we can exchange links all day. Here’s one from last week where experts say that an assault weapons ban WILL make a difference. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/15/its-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban-gun-violence-experts-say/?utm_term=.88971e6c048b

            Please do not talk down to me because I disagree with you. Please do not assume I am without knowledge because my conclusions are different than yours.
            Have a nice day.

          • Frank

            From your link

            “Gun rights groups like the National Rifle Association oppose such bans. They point out that most owners of such weapons are law-abiding citizens, and that the millions of the guns and magazines in circulation would make enforcement of any such ban a challenge. They also note, correctly, that the overwhelming majority of gun homicides are committed with handguns, making the impact of an assault weapons ban on the overall crime rate minimal.”

            If you ban the scary black rifle, there are still going to be a couple of million of them in circulation. But even if you got rid of them all, a run of the mill shotgun is 100% as effective in mowing lots of people down quickly. Actually, moreso.

            And gang bangers prove everyday that a pistol does the job, no problem.

            Also, remember. Before the assault ban, they were relatively rare. Most were imported from Eastern bloc countries. In addition to the millions of complete rifles we have now, there are enough parts to make millions more. Its not hard, almost anyone can put an AR pattern rifle together.

            It’s way too late for banning to work. We have to work on prevention.

          • crystals

            You just picked out the one paragraph from the story that you like. Again, we can both exchange links and studies and talking points that support our opinions all day. I don’t know about you, but I’ve got better and higher impact things to do.

            I am willing to try an assault weapons ban to try and decrease the likelihood of mass casualty events in the future. You are not. Let’s agree to disagree.

          • jon

            Imagine a world where background checks worked 99% of the time… what would be on the news?

            There is a selection basis to the times that background checks didn’t stop a shooting and times when a shooting happened.

            I’m sure you are smart enough to know that… but you opt to not bother with it… What’s up with that?

          • Frank

            Show me some evidence. I’m completely unafraid of facts that may not agree with my argument. Bring them on.

          • jon
          • Frank

            So many felons have been kept from buying guns. Im aware of that; excellent, great.

            But here we are, with another nutcase that PASSED a BG check.

            He didn’t make use of the mythical gun show loophole, he went into a legal store, presented his ID and bought a rifle. What’s gonna be different?

          • >>mythical gun show loophole<<

            It's called a "Private sale" and is a very real loophole.

    • RBHolb

      So we can normalize the presence of armed officials everywhere?

      • Frank

        Looks like that’s the fact. At.least until we get a handle on what’s driving these people nuts.

        • RBHolb

          Has this shooter been diagnosed with a mental illness? Everything I have read points to him as a “troubled” person, but I have yet to hear of a diagnosis that tells us how he is “nuts.”

          How about we keep guns out of the hands of people who are “nuts?”

          • Frank

            We probably can’t. So a smart person prepares to stop these poor “troubled” souls.

          • RBHolb

            Maybe we could pay for school counselors and psychologists to identify and keep problems from getting out of hand. That seems like a better solution than hiring a guard to spray more lead around in the hallways.

          • Frank

            This last kid was identified, counseled, kicked out, banned from returning, reported to the FBI twice and the local cops several times.

            Where did that get us?

          • RBHolb

            A messed-up kid with an AR-15 going to a school that normally has an armed security guard in place.

          • Frank

            Right. With “normally has” being the key phrase there.

          • >>We probably can’t. So a smart person prepares to stop these poor “troubled” souls.<<

            …by strengthening the background check system and making it universal for each and every firearm purchase.

          • Frank

            This latest guy passed a background check. So did the Las Vegas guy and the LA jihadists.

            Why don’t you know these things?

          • >>This latest guy passed a background check. So did the Las Vegas guy and the LA jihadists.

            Why don’t you know these things?<<

            That's why I said "strengthen" the BG check.

          • Frank

            OK, how?

          • As Gary has pointed out numerous times, fix the NICS system for starters.

            Make obtaining a long gun as stringent as obtaining a handgun – it’s a LOT harder to obtain a handgun than a long gun, see “Scott’s reply downthread.

            Reinstate the “High-Capacity” magazine ban.

            Those are just for starters.

            /As an aside, I have an FFL

          • Frank

            There are things that can and should be done to fix NICS. We don’t need new laws to do that.

            The only difference between buying a handgun and a rifle is age. You go through NICS either way. You gonna tell an 18 year old he/she isnt qualified to handle a rifle? Gonna be some upset drill instructors to beg differently.

            If you have an FFL (no big deal, by the way), you know how easy it is to change out a magazine.

            1 30 round vs. 3 10 round…we’re talking 10, maybe 20 seconds diff, max. I shoot 3 gun, and can swap a mag in 2 secs, flat. Its a canard, and you know it.

          • >>The only difference between buying a handgun and a rifle is age.<>If you have an FFL (no big deal, by the way)..<<

            And you have one?

          • Frank

            “So far as swapping out mags, anything to make it more difficult for someone to kill a lot of people (like swapping out magazines) is a good thing.”

            It takes, on average 10 minutes before armed response shows up to these things. Most of the time, they either shoot themselves or are gone before help arrives. So making a guy spend an extra 20 seconds changing mags is the answer…but having an armed response on the scene immediately is out of the question.

            Where is the logic in that, exactly?

            Any law abiding citizen can get an FFL. Pay the fee, get the BG check and you’re good to go. Its no harder than getting a license for a supressor.

          • >>Any law abiding citizen can get an FFL.<>So making a guy spend an extra 20 seconds changing mags is the answer<<

            20 seconds between mags is a LOT of time for people to flee / barricade, etc. Plus, there is a chance that there will be a misfeed when swapping out mags buying even MORE time (I had that happen to me twice while qualifying on my M-16 when I was at Fort Benning.)

            So what is YOUR viable solution to this mass shooting problem?

            /Armed guards everywhere isn’t a viable solution.

          • Frank

            “Armed guards everywhere isn’t a viable solution.”

            Tell that to banks, jewelry stores, convenience and liquor stores, Cub foods on Broadway, bars, every federal office building, state court houses, airports and everywhere else armed violence has occurred with any frequency.

            It’s completely viable, and it works. That is, if keeping something safe (kids in this instance) is really your goal.

            I’m convinced that isn’t the real goal for any of the folks that have weighed in here, except me.

  • AL287

    After reading the numerous news stories, the similarities between Adam Lanza’s and Nikolas Cruz’s family histories is eerily similar.

    Both of them grew up in privileged single parent homes headed by the mother. In both of these instances, the mother believed giving them every advantage would help control their erratic behavior.

    “Lynda dealt with it like most parents did. She was probably too good to
    him,” said Kumbatovic. “She made a beautiful home for them. She put a
    lot of effort and time into their schooling, their recreation, whatever
    they needed. . . . She went over and above, because she needed to
    compensate for being a single parent.”

    —The Washington Post

    Mental illness cannot be fixed by law enforcement nor can it be helped by indulging impulsive behavior by buying the latest gadget or toy.

    It is recognizing that the situation is out of your control and getting the child into a closely supervised, institutional setting where mental health professionals can take over.

    I often wonder how many teachers report a behavior problem to a parent during conferences and the parent says, “My child would NEVER do that!”

    The following is an excerpt from the Washington Post:

    A classmate through elementary and middle school, Brody Speno waited
    every day with Cruz to catch the bus to school. Then one afternoon about
    five years ago, when they both were teenagers, Cruz started throwing
    eggs at Speno’s car with no warning, Speno recalled. He and a friend
    chased Cruz back to his house.

    “We were pissed off, so we knocked on the door and his mom came out,” Speno said. When the two told her what happened, Cruz’s mom had a strange reaction.

    “She said, ‘No, my son would never do that. He’s inside sleeping,’ ” Speno recalled.

    There were visible indications of troubles in their home. Three neighbors
    recalled seeing furniture on the curb to be hauled away every few
    months. The hutches and tables often looked like they had been kicked in
    or smashed up by someone.

    For years, Roxburgh’s daughter Rhonda drove past Cruz in the morning as he waited for the school bus. One morning about four years ago, Rhonda Roxburgh said, Cruz suddenly attacked her car, slamming it hard with his backpack.

    When she got out to confront him, Cruz simply laughed and sneered, so
    Roxburgh called the police. For the next few mornings, Rhonda Roxburgh
    said, police stationed an officer at the intersection to make sure Cruz
    didn’t attack or throw rocks at cars.

    Fed up with the terrorizing, Roxburgh said she confronted Cruz’s mother, but again, she refused to believe her son had done it.

    While Roxburgh was talking to Lynda Cruz, however, she saw the boy sneaking out of the house. So she went to confront him, too.

    Roxburgh said she told the teenager, “Look at me when I’m talking to you.”

    When Cruz did, the look he gave chilled Roxburgh to the core.

    “It was just so cold. Like empty, cavernous eyes,” she said. “No feeling at all.”
    ———

    I would think this happens hundreds of times each month across the country.

    The key to solving a problem is recognizing the problem to start with.

    In this terrible, horrible, unthinkable instance the can was repeatedly kicked down the road until the child was no longer a minor and beyond parental control and fell into the jurisdiction of state and federal control which failed utterly.

    A parent’s denial cost other parents their precious children.

    • BJ

      >I would think this happens hundreds of times each month across the country.

      10’s of thousands of times each day.

      You can’t point to 2 cases and say – yes single moms, that’s the problem.

      Access to guns that have high capacity, that is the link between all the mass shootings that I can find.

      • AL287

        My point was that sometimes it is necessary for a parent, single, female or otherwise to admit they can’t handle a kid like Cruz or Lanza and let a professional take over.

        These two cases happened to involve female, single parents.

        My hundreds of times comment was referring to teachers who hear the denial of a behavior problem at parent teacher conferences on a regular basis.

        Good luck getting a restriction on high capacity magazines. It hasn’t happened in the last 20 years and it won’t happen in the next 20.

        It appears Americans care more about their guns than keeping their children safe from mass murderers.

  • Mike Worcester

    Fwiw, I’ll add the voice of the kids to this. One in particular:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/florida-student-emma-gonzalez-speech/index.html

  • Gary F

    Why doesn’t anyone blame the gun when a cop shoots someone?

    • kevins

      Could it be that having and possibly using a firearm is inherent to their ascribed role….we don’t pay school shooters to be school shooters.

  • Reminder: You can flag comments by clicking the “down arrow” for the menu to the far right of the line with your name on it. Flag comments only for violation of the rules; not because you disagree with it. Thank you for self policing.

  • PaulMN

    Your headline identifies part of the the problem. We need to resist the urge to simply “do something”. When an airliner crashes and there is great loss of life, the NTSB looks into specifically what caused the crash and proposes specific solutions to prevent that specific failure mode from occurring again. The NTSB addresses the specific problem, rather than saying “we should ‘do something’ about airline crashes”.
    Please offer solutions that would have specifically prevented this latest gun tragedy. Then maybe one-by-one we can reduce these gun tragedies in the future.

    • Actually the NTSB isn’t in charge of telling anyone what to do. It only establishes a cause of the incident. Nothing more.

      The cause of the incident in Florida has already been determined.

      • PaulMN

        Bob, I think we are talking past each other. We both want gun violence to be reduced (eliminated, actually).
        I am an engineer by training and trade. I have had to perform failure analysis activities scores of times in my career. Preventing future failures is basically answering 3 key questions:
        1) What went wrong?
        2) What is your solution to fix what went wrong?
        3) What is your convincing argument/data that shows why your solution will prevent the same problem from happening again?

        My main concern with the “do something” approach is that the 3rd question is seldom answered by our politicians and policy makers regarding gun violence. By not answering the 3rd question, there is the real risk (in some cases likelihood) that a proposed “solution” solves nothing and adds ineffective burdens and costs.
        As I said above, we both want gun violence to be reduced (eliminated, actually). But I am frustrated that the approach to reducing gun violence is done out emotion rather than done using proven problem solving/elimination techniques. Hence my NTSB example.
        BTW “The NTSB is an independent federal agency, charged by Congress to investigate transportation accidents, determine probable cause, and issue safety recommendations to prevent similar accidents”. Google “The NTSB’s Role in Aviation Safety” and click on the PDF that is shown.

        • Frank

          Best commentary on this subject so far. Very well done, sir.