Preaching to the choir at SAG awards

The actors, actresses, directors, and producers of entertainment needn’t have bothered with their various statements of opposition to the Trump administration last evening.

The administration’s support comes largely from the portrayal of the creative class as elites who look down upon the common person.

So we didn’t have to look online today — although we did — to gauge the impact of the statements of opposition. There was none, at least where it matters. For the most part, the people opposed to the president’s immigration ban remain opposed; the people who support it — again, for the most part — support it.

But the creative class is better at staking out their side.

That’s the sort of thing that holds no sway with the Jackson brothers of Elizabethtown, N.Y., who appeared in a story on NPR’s All Things Considered last night. They provide the power source that fuels the administration agenda.

There’s no way to have a conversation with the fellas.

“I feel that if a Muslim woman wants to move into this country, she needs to leave her towel home. Because the reason this country is here and safe today is because of Jesus Christ,” Bill says. “We were one nation under God. The Muslims are into Allah. They can’t live there [in their home countries] anymore because of all the turmoil and unrest. Here we still have somewhat peace. So if you’re going to come here to enjoy this peace, follow our rules and be one nation under God. Or stay home. I’m not making you change your religion, or whatever you want to call it, your belief. But if you want this, what we want, then you got to do what we’re doing to get it.”

But surely there’s a way to talk about the values of freedom and liberty and it’s role in American life, right, Bill?

“That is something I believe that has come along with political correctness and all this other garbage.”

Little brother Tim wanted Trump’s opponent in the election. So he stayed home. He didn’t vote. And because he didn’t vote, he says he has no right to a voice now.

“You had the chance to vote,” Tim says. “And that’s there with me. It’s like, I feel like I don’t have a say in it.”

It’s impossible to close the divide.

  • MrE85

    I keep hearing people say the Democrats need people like the Johnson Bros. to win. But if your party and policy reflect the wit and wisdom of folk like Tim & Bill, has anyone really won?

  • Jerry

    How do you argue with such intentional, willfull ignorance?

    • jon

      I’m left to wonder if they have ever met a muslim.
      Is this willful ignorance, or just the regular kind that has been re-enforced as truth by being repeated so often.

      In the rural/urban divide the urban side is most likely to be hit by a terror attack, but the urban voters are most likely to oppose a ban on islam.
      Urban voters are most likely to have interactions with those of other faiths, and ethnic origins but least likely to favor banning those people from our country.

      I suspect interactions with people of other faiths, nationalities, colors, and creeds, humanizes them.
      I worked techs support over the phone, and got swore at by a number of people when I told them that the data they deleted was gone, because they deleted it, and was not retrievable… those same people switched to an embarrassed “awe shucks” when told similar news face to face.

      This is of course all generalities…
      And I’m sure there will be lots of responses filled with datasets of 1 arguing against the statements I made…
      But over all the trend is interesting that those who have the least to lose in a terror attack are the most willing to implement draconian measures to prevent them… though they are also the ones with the least to lose over implementation of draconian measures….

      • MikeB

        The inverse correlation between fear and those at risk. Bingo.

  • jon

    When Actual factual slave owners, who didn’t allow women to vote or work are to PC for you.

  • Mike

    To a large degree, the mentality exhibited by Bill Jackson represents a failure of our educational system. I wonder how many kids going through public schools in the U.S. ever receive any perspective on our country that’s critical, or that takes a more skeptical approach to American culture and history. There wasn’t a lot of that when I was growing up, and that was well before 9/11 and the ensuing hyper-patriotism.

    Since at least 1945, the U.S. has been a neocolonial power in the Middle East, playing one faction and one dictator off another, picking up where the British and French left off. We’ve done our best to prevent formation of modern civil society in many of those countries because it was in the oil companies’ best interest to deal with dictators, monarchs, etc. The average American doesn’t seem to have one ounce of knowledge of any that, and it’s fair to assign some of that blame to the educational system.

    Then there’s the media and its constant nationalistic cheerleading, but that’s a topic for another post….

  • wjc

    We are screwed. Just sayin’

  • Rob

    Jesus may save, but clearly He doesn’t save all believers from ignorance. God bless American Exceptionalism!

  • Will

    I just wonder where all the protests and outrage from the media was when Obama did a similar thing in 2011.

      • Will

        You want me believe an opinion piece from a news organization that has actively campaigned against Trump for the past year?

        Can I ask you to write in your own words how it was different and if similar incidents couldn’t be used to make the same justification Obama did at the time???

        We can converse with each other or I can go copy and paste an opinion piece from a source you won’t like.

        • Sam M

          There wasn’t a ban. They also didn’t qualify it with a religious test… ie well you Christians can come over. Oh and a specific threat. Address the points the article made and not just the source. Citing the source and the fact you don’t agree with them is not an argument.

          • Will

            Can we be honest here, this isn’t a Muslim ban, it’s not so let’s stop using false and divisive language like that. Even Christians have been stopped from these countries.

          • Sam M

            Why was the language about Christians included then if there isn’t a religious component in it? Check out what Rudy from New York said over the weekend and let me know about the intent.

            Religious test question aside I just don’t think overall it helps the cause which is my issue with it. I’d like to hear your opinion on that piece of it. I feel like that’s what is missing from this dialogue is the other side of that argument.

          • Will

            Rudy is crazy and possibly bitter about not getting a cabinet spot. Even still if it was done in a legal way then we’ll just have to wait until a court stops it or the time is up.

            Well it sounds like Trump wants better vetting so if it’s just temporary and we can get some immediate exceptions for certain people who helped our troops then begin the immigration again in a few weeks then I don’t see it being much different than what Obama did.

          • Sam M

            Well they had a crazy guy speaking on behalf of them for a long time so I’m not sure what that says about Mr. Trump and his team. They supported a lot of those crazy theories for a long time as well.

            Do you think this makes us safer? That’s what it comes down to and I don’t think it does. I’m more nervous now then I was on Thursday.

          • Veronica

            What about a 2 year process should be “better”?

            And no, Bob, there’s no bridging the divide. All I can hope is that horrible people making horrible moves finally get defeated by the majority.

          • RBHolb

            No, it was not a Muslim ban. Those from countries in which the Trump Organization has business interests are not included. Funny, because most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Saudi Arabia also exports Wahhabi extremism, but no, no reason to give them careful consideration.

        • Ben Chorn

          While it may be an opinion piece it contains facts that are relevant in proving that what Obama did in 2011 is not the same as what Trump is doing now.

          For example, in 2011 the response by Obama was for one country based on real security threats.

          • Will

            So the stabbing in St. Cloud by an ISIS recruit or the recruitment of people to join ISIS and fly to Syria aren’t real security threats? That’s just here in Minnesota!

          • >>So the stabbing in St. Cloud by an ISIS recruit<> the recruitment of people to join ISIS and fly to Syria aren’t real security threats? <<

            Pretty sure being vetted for a few years as a refugee fleeing ISIS this won't happen.

            Bonus: Refugees don't get to pick which country they get to go to.

          • Will

            Remember how a Somalian refugee was recruiting people in this state?

            http://minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/ongoing/somali_timeline/

          • So the proper reaction is to ban ALL refugees from a particular country. Got it.

            Nice knee-jerk reaction ya got there.

          • dukepowell

            Apparently you haven’t had a family member blown up by a refugee. Additionally, you haven’t had an illegal alien, without a license or insurance, T-bone your car. You also apparently have never had an immigrant, legal or not, take your job.

            Got it, Onan, whoever you are.

          • >>Apparently you haven’t had a family member blown up by a refugee. <>Additionally, you haven’t had an illegal alien, without a license or insurance, T-bone your car. <<

            What does a car accident have to do with refugees? I've had my car rear-ended by an uninsured motorist…she was from South Dakota. Probably should have built that wall around Minnesota to keep her out.

            Keep living in fear, Duke.

            /Yes, I've lost my job to an immigrant and was unemployed for 6 months. I was able to find employment in the district you represented .

          • Jerry

            Considering the fact I’m much more likely to be killed by a white male Christian terrorist, maybe we should start with them.

          • Rob

            Of all the car crashes and jobs lost to someone else in any given year, how many do you suppose involve refugees?

          • crystals

            Apparently you haven’t had a family member blown up by a refugee. Additionally, you haven’t had an illegal alien, without a license or insurance, T-bone your car. You also apparently have never had an immigrant, legal or not, take your job.//

            If you really want to play this game, I have known someone murdered by ISIS. He was a wonderful human who did not deserve to die, and whose death cannot be undone. The executive order that our president signed into law will do nothing to stop deaths like his inside or outside of our border. It will only encourage more young men and women, who are convinced America is the enemy, to take up arms against us.

          • Will

            Better vetting, like what Obama did in 2011.

          • So you agree that a complete ban on refugees from the countries outlined in President Trump’s EO goes too far?

          • Sam M

            How does this EO prevent the St. Cloud stabbing from happening?

            The EO was like using a hammer to put together Ikea furniture.

          • Will

            The executive order involves searching social media, might catch things like radicalization.

          • Sam M

            Because when he came over as a child he had social media then.

            Do you really think this makes us safer? It’s a simple question.

          • Will

            Marginally safer, terrorist attacks are rare anyway. But they do raise fear levels.

          • Sam M

            So why stir the pot by initiating the ban? If it’s rare you don’t need the EO. Are you ever going to 100% terrorist attack free? No. Fear does not equal something will happen.

            It was a red meat order. More branding Trump style.

          • Jerry

            Some of Trump’s closest advisors would be banned based on radical and dangerous social media.

          • Kassie

            Anyone who was actually radicalized and a threat is probably smart enough to not give up social media accounts that reflect that. I would guess that within a week, most foreigners will delete social media applications from their phone and claim they have no social media accounts. Then what? Prove they don’t.

          • Will

            Um, remember the San Bernardino shootings? The St. Cloud stabbing? Both make comments connecting them to ISIS before their attacks.

          • Kassie

            Yes. I was talking about before going through immigration, which is what the thread is about. Please try to keep up. My point is now they will all remove those things from their phones before going through immigration.

    • dukepowell

      Will, you’re right, but what you didn’t mention was that the seven countries were identified by the Obama Administration as being “countries of concern” in 2015 and again in 2016.

      That language was approved by Congress just last year.

      Congress has given the President, any President, the ability to control immigration to a large degree. If Congress wants to take that power back, they can do it today.

      I have a feeling they won’t.

      • Will

        There you go that’s a serious point, I agree I’m not a fan of Trump’s blanket ban and I hope he adjusts it to allow more people through that have been vetted and helped our troops, but this is temporary and once the vetting process is adjusted people will be allowed through again. But Trump has this power and it is his right to do this in the name of keeping Americans safe.

        • Veronica

          The Nazis told the Jews that rounding them up was “temporary” too…history has a funny way of repeating itself, especially when the guys now are using the same blueprint that they did back then.

          • Sam M

            We also won’t acknowledge them in our statement about the holocaust.

          • dukepowell

            Who’s been “rounded up?” I must of missed something…

          • BJ

            Lots of people detained this past weekend.

          • dukepowell

            Right. Detained. Sent back or released. Not rounded up

          • dukepowell

            Also, it would have been “lots of people” if they were standing in your living room but given that several hundred thousand people entered the US over the weekend…..

          • Veronica

            Bob’s right. Some people just can’t be helped.

            And your “detained” is my “rounded up”.

          • BJ

            “to gather in or bring together from various quarters”

            “to restrain especially from proceeding”

            Not a whole lot of difference, subtly is not this current Presidents trademark.

            Rounded up and sent back.

            Detained and sent back.

            So the difference is …..

          • Will

            Godwin’s law.

          • wjc

            See a Nazi, say “a Nazi”. Godwin’s Law be damned.

        • Rob

          I felt perfectly safe before Tea-Rump and Steve “Ban ’em all!” Bannon started their clusterf¡¢k.

    • KTN

      A couple of things. First, President Obama ordered a slow down in Iraqi immigration based on an actual threat (two Iraqi’s had been arrested with bomb making equipment, and as such, the Pres took action. Second, there was never a month during that slowdown where people were blocked from entering the country – slowed down, but not blocked.
      Third, if you had bothered to read the Order you might have a little better understanding, it reads to keep “Islamic terrorists” out of the country. Not Christian terrorists, or Hindu, just Muslim. Now maybe in your world view there is only one kind of terrorist, but in the real world, they come in different hues and colors.
      The sociopath made it a campaign pledge to ban Muslims, and in this order, which looks like it was written by an intern on their coffee break, does just that. No animus there however right.

    • RBHolb

      Gosh, I wonder.

      Could it be that President Obama’s “similar thing” was a review of the process of vetting applicants for Special Immigrant Status (permission to immigrate based on having assisted the US military in Iraq or Afghanistan)? Could it be that the review involved cabinet officials and the intelligence community, and was not drafted ad hoc by a white nationalist installed in the White House? Could it be that refugee visas were still granted during that period? Could it be that nationals of the countries identified as “countries of concern” were not denied permission to enter, but were told they needed visas?

      I can’t help but think the two situations may be different. I just can’t put my finger on why.

  • Kassie

    Let’s not forget that Trump is a member of the Screen Actor’s Guild and takes a $168,000 pension from them. He is also the creative class elite. He is who Trump supporters hate.

    • …and he’ll steadfastly deny it…

      • Veronica

        And his supporters won’t be able to understand the irony

      • jon

        The proof is in the tax returns.

    • Rob

      No wonder he’s always struck me as a saggy dude…

  • >>“I feel that if a Muslim woman wants to move into this country, she needs to leave her towel home. Because the reason this country is here and safe today is because of Jesus Christ,” <<

    What did you expect? "Welcome, sonny"? "Make yourself at home"? "Marry my daughter"? You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons.

    • kennedy

      Yes. Name calling such as “Moron” is a great way to open a productive conversation.

      The way I see it, people are scared. That fear and the related anger are being used to motivate/manipulate people. Fear overrides critical thinking. Fear is attached to the unknown. The way to overcome it is for real people to get to know each other. Not as a symbol but as a person.

      • You know what I posted is a movie quote, right?

        • kennedy

          OK. So were you being sarcastic and saying that the ‘elitist’ attitude is uninformed? Or were you using the reference to say that Bill and/or Tim are morons but soften it up because it’s from a comedy?

          • Jerry

            They’re not morons, they just have alternative intelligence.

          • Rob

            LOFL!

          • Feel free to take the quote any way you want.

      • BJ
      • Rob

        The fact that people are fearful of refugees is sad and not real forgivable, IMHO.

  • Blasko

    No way to have a conversation? Really? I don’t buy it. If you lived where these guys lived, shopped for food where these guys shopped for food, had a beer where these guys have a beer (if they drink), you could talk to them. Change their mind on everything? No, of course not. But build some kind of shared understanding over time, built on a tenuous respect and a desire for a strong nation in which people of all faiths can live prosperously? Yes. The gentle force of the better idea, and all our better angels, can win out. Respect and dignity are important places to start.

    • BJ

      “We were one nation under God. The Muslims are into Allah.”

      How do you start the conversation, perhaps explaining that Allah is just another languages word for God.

      Islamic prophet Muhammad received his divine revelations through the angel Gabriel, the same angel that is credited with foretelling the birth of Jesus.

      At that point, if his mind hasn’t melted, maybe we could have a conversation.

      • DJ Wambeke

        >>perhaps explaining that Allah is just another languages word for God.
        Indeed! Melkite, Chaldean, and Maronite Christians all pray to Allah in their liturgy as well as private prayer.

        Although, to be fair, Islamic and Christian theology has a bit of a different slant on what “God” looks like, so getting past the language hangup won’t resolve the issue, though it is certainly a good bridge-building step.

    • Rob

      I am eager to converse with folks who call religious head wear “towels” and don’t even acknowledge that Islam is every bit as much of a religion as Christianity is. No, wait – I’ll pass.

  • Anna

    There are so many parallels between this and the Second World War.

    Congress was also pursuing a policy of isolationism and protectionism. We could have saved thousands more Jews if we had not let our fear and intolerance get the better of us.

    Had we not been forced to enter the war when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, I doubt globalization would have progressed very far and we would have remained an isolated, predominantly white Christian nation.

    The Jews did not believe in Jesus Christ just as the Muslims do not believe in him but believe in Allah and have connections to the prophet Abraham.

    The hard labor jobs on crop and dairy farms across the nation are jobs native born, white Americans don’t want to do or consider themselves too good for.

    When the trade tariffs go into effect and you can’t afford to put good nutritious food on your table, you’ll wish you had been more tolerant.

    There won’t be a shiny new car in the driveway every two years because you won’t be able to afford one. You’ll drive your car until it falls apart much like the citizens of Cuba do now.

    What will destroy the United States is not future terrorists from abroad but our own ignorance and intolerance of anyone who doesn’t dress like us, think like us or worship like us.

    We fought the Revolutionary War so we could live out our lives free from oppression and persecution.

    We will be living in a prison of our own making very soon.

    • Rob

      Love your comment. As Ben Franklin said: “Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.” The clusterf¢¡k is in full swing.

      • Jeff

        He also said: “I have often looked at that behind the president without being able to tell whether it was rising or setting.”

  • RBHolb

    History will not be kind to this time in American government. It will be judged no less harshly than the mass round-up of the Japanese during World War II (done on the basis of deliberately falsified intelligence), or the refusal to admit Jewish refugees a few years earlier. Both policies received broad public approval at the time, but are now roundly condemned.

    In the future, a lot of the condemnation will cone from the tacit belief that the condemner would have opposed the policies even then. How many of us think we would have favored letting the St. Louis dock in the U.S? How many of us think we would have opposed the exclusion of ethnic Japanese? It’s easy to be on the right side of history in retrospect.

    The same will happen in a few decades. In a few years, no one will have been in favor of these bans. It will be a mystery how anyone could tolerate such a thing.

    • Rob

      Just a slight correction – the people rounded up in WWII were American citizens of Japanese descent. And the fact that the internment was broadly supported made the profound violation of these folks’ civil liberties even more heinous.

      • RBHolb

        Another slight correction – It was anyone of Japanese descent., citizens or not, But yes, popular support for injustice is a reflection on the people as well as the injustice.

        • Rob

          The focus was on American citizens of Japanese descent.

    • Heb Ienek

      You think so? I don’t. Not many people know much about US history these days.

      In 1882, [the United States] excluded people were likely to become public charges. It subsequently prohibited the immigration of contract laborers (1885) and illiterates (1917), and all Asian immigrants (except for Filipinos, who were U.S. nationals) (1917). Other acts restricted the entry of certain criminals, people who were considered immoral, those suffering from certain diseases, and paupers.

      The Act of 1875 prohibited the entry of immigrants considered as “undesirable” “Undesirable” was classified as any individual from Asia who was coming to America to be a contract laborer.

      Immigration Act of 1891 directed the Immigration Bureau to deport unlawful aliens.

      Immigration Act of 1903 added four inadmissible classes: anarchists, people with epilepsy, beggars, and importers of prostitutes.

      1953 Immigration and Nationality Act (McCarran-Walter Act) Increased the power of the government to deport illegal immigrants suspected of Communist sympathies.

      Jimmy Carter banned Iranian immigration in 1980, unless applicants could prove they were enemies of the Khomenei theocracy.

      In 2013, Obama issued an Executive order directing the State Department to imposed a freeze over the processing of Iraqi refugees for six months.

      Trump is walking well trod ground here.

      • BJ

        >In 2013, Obama issued an Executive order directing the State Department to imposed a freeze over the processing of Iraqi refugees for six months.

        2 corrections.

        1. What you said (freeze) never happened, they changed the vetting process and there was a slow down in processing of refugees, you can look at see that every month had Iraqi refugees.

        2. It was 2011.

        • Heb Ienek

          “every month had an Iraqi refugee”

          As in one? lol OK it was severe slowing down. Trump is just slowing it down a smidge more.

          • BJ

            Not just one. Go look it up.

          • Heb Ienek

            No need, I’ve conceded your point. One or ten, some were allowed in.

          • BJ

            Or Hundreds, thousands.

            No freeze at all.

      • RBHolb

        “In 2013, Obama issued an Executive order directing the State Department to imposed a freeze over the processing of Iraqi refugees for six months.”

        Well, no. In 2011, he issued a freeze on processing applications for Special Immigrant Visas, granted to Iraqis or citizens of Afghanistan who aided the US military. Other refugee applications continued to be processed.

        I really don’t think you can compare most of the situations you cite to a blanket ban on refugees from certain countries.

        • Heb Ienek

          Right. As BJ pointed out, one a month or so was getting through. I stand corrected.

          The point is, people have short memories. Even today, this issue is being received with a huge yawn. It’s an historical footnote someone will dig up for a future comment thread.

          The real action of historical note will be our fortification of the Southern border; it’s a game changer.

          • RBHolb

            Bigotry has always been popular in the United States. Even as I type this, the comment section on the PiPress webpage have comments referring to Muslims as “the world’s trash,” making ill-informed judgments that the shootings in Quebec are examples of “Muslims killing Muslims.”

            For the most part, we have come to judge that kind of rank bigotry as wrong, even if it was sanctioned by the popular sentiment.

          • Heb Ienek

            Yeah, I know. Some people are too thin skinned, too quick to judge. Islamic terrorists are quite respectable in many parts of the world, hardly seen as trash, and they haven’t killed anyone in the US for weeks; who cares about Quebec?

          • Jerry

            The suspect in the mosque shooting was a white nationalist, but nice try.

          • Heb Ienek

            Tried to find “Quebec shooter white nationalist”, but the google failed me. Help a brother out with a link?

          • Jerry
          • Heb Ienek

            Doesn’t say anything about white nationalists…I see what you did there.

          • Jerry

            “The organization, Bienvenue aux Refugiés, said in a Facebook post that Mr. Bissonnette had made remarks critical of feminists and foreigners, and that he had expressed sympathies online with the National Front, the far-right political party in France.”

          • Heb Ienek

            “White Nationalist”; see that in there anywhere? Did I miss it? Maybe I did, can you help me find it?

          • RBHolb

            I just typed in that same search. Are you reading any of the results?

          • RBHolb

            “[W]ho cares about Quebec?”

            Someone must. At the PiPress site there are over 60 comments on this story. One genius was so convinced the shooter was a Muslim terrorist that he or she wagered money. What are you going to do with people like that?

          • Heb Ienek

            Pay them, presumably.

          • RBHolb

            Why? She/he was wrong.

          • Jerry

            Don’t you know that the shooter being Muslim is a perfectly valid Alternate Fact™

          • Rob

            Love the trademark!

          • KTN

            The suspect’s name is Alexandre Bissonnette. Is that a Muslim name? Seems French Canadian to me, having spent a fair amount of time in Quebec over the years, but you know best, he’s probably a closet Muslim in disguise.

          • Heb Ienek

            Of course. Everyone knows all Muslims are named Mohammed! How could I have missed it?

          • KTN

            By not paying attention I guess. The brown skinned one from Tunis is apparently the hero here, you know, by calling the police about a white guy shooting up a Mosque and killing people – you do regard Muslims as people right.

          • BJ

            It wasn’t one.

      • Jeff

        Note that all but two of your examples are legislation that went through at least two branches of government and were not imposed by executive order/edict. Carter was in response to the hostage crisis. As noted by @Bj Obama implemented more extensive vetting. I’ll give you some points for Obama’s dreamer EO, but that was inclusive rather than exclusive.

        • Heb Ienek

          Oh, I’m betting we will see plenty of immigration legislation in the coming years. Trump’s order is only temporary.

          My point is, America has always and often decided who it will accept, and under what conditions we will accept them. Many of the decisions would outrage any lefty worth the title, but we have prospered through it all and no one even remembers the issues of recent history.

          While the media is certainly trying to whip this thing into some kind of crisis, most folks see it as doing what he promised to do.

          Tomorrow Trump will announce his pick for SCOTUS. He’s evidently whittled his list of 20 down to three, and any one of those three will be a wonderful addition to the court, and will surely spark a new wave of outrage from the left.

          By Friday, no one will even remember this issue.

          • Jeff

            I think you missed the point. it’s not only restrictions on immigration that have people upset, it’s how it was implemented apparently with little legal forethought and applied arbitrarily with virtually no warning. It affected many people’s lives to only make a political point without any evidence this makes anyone safer. Legislation at least has a chance of being debated and vetted.

          • Heb Ienek

            No warning? I recall this very action being talked about for at least 9 months. Trump promised it would be one of the very first things he did in office, and so it is. Rather than being arbitrary, Trump has provided evidence that these 7 specific countries have been of concern for a long time. Even Obama’s people thought trouble could come from them.

            It has withstood court challenges so far with minimal interruption; I’m sure the ACLU will continue to challenge it, but history shows us Trump is on very solid ground here.

          • KTN

            Solid ground huh, really. This EO is the biggest birthday present the ACLU could ever ask for. The Order appears to have been written by an intern, and since it was not reviewed by DHS, the Justice Department, the State Department, or
            the Department of Defense, and that National Security Council lawyers
            were prevented from evaluating it. Now that’s some good policy.

            The sociopath ranted for months about a Muslim ban, and if you had read the EO, you would notice the words “keeping Islamic terrorists out”, not Christian terrorists, or Hindu, or even it seems today, Quebecois terrorists, just Muslim. The Establishment Clause, supported by the Court says, we don’t do that.

          • Heb Ienek

            Well, that’s what the courts are for. The previous sociopath was sued plenty, so sue away now.

          • KTN

            Pithy, didn’t strain yourself now did you.

          • Heb Ienek

            I never seem to find that necessary.

          • Rob

            You’re clearly confused as to the concept of what constitutes a sociopath. The fact that you didn’t support Obama doesn’t make him one.

          • Heb Ienek

            You’re a very funny fellow.

          • Rob

            I do what I can.

          • KTN

            Who needs to file a suit : the AG will not enforce that bigot’s EO, saying “…must ensure the department’s position is both “legally
            defensible” and “consistent with this institution’s solemn obligation to
            always seek justice and stand for what is right.”
            Ouch, that’s gotta smart a bit.

          • Heb Ienek
          • Jerry

            This country into fascism? Yeah, that hurts like hell. But you’re apparently cool with it.

          • KTN

            She should have resigned. But whatever lacky he puts in place until Sessions (didn’t the Senate reject him 25 years ago for his less than charitable views on black people) takes over, they will don their hood and all will be right with world.

          • Sam M

            He promised to do it based on religion for much of that time… hence the outrage. Oh yeah he changed it to countries but Rudy made it pretty clear the intent is the same.

            His fatal flaw is including the “Christian” clause.

      • Will

        True while all those moves weren’t done for great reasons I think we can point to Carter’s action as similar to what Trump did.

    • Jeff

      I don’t disagree with your comments, but I want to meet this History dude who won’t be kind and then see what he/she does about it. People often cite that history will judge us but when does that happen? Other than saying “naw, naw I told you so” it never makes up for anything. It feels more like an excuse to stand around and do nothing (which I’m usually guilty of).

  • guest

    OK, instead of good people versus stupid people, how about we ask: To let tens of thousands into the US, and also let in a very few that commit violence…..is it worth letting them all in or not?

    A) Every single person let in will never attack or the very few that do attack are worth letting the others in.
    B) Even if only a very few attack, it is NOT worth letting many worthy people in also.

    This would make sense from EITHER side IF their underlying assumptions pan out.

    P.S. This is about new arrivals, home-grown attackers will still be a problem.

  • Joe

    I disagree with the opening statement of this post. Sure, we already know where the “creative class’ generally stands on the issue. But when you have one man pushing through action after action with minimal input, it’s important that the rest of us voice continue to provide a voice for balance at a time when the concept of balance is at a minimum. Consider that these voices aren’t preaching to the choir..they sing on the choir’s largest stage, and as such, are able to give a loud voice to the choir. I myself don’t sing for Tim and Bill (or god forbid, Trump), I sing for the leaders I elect to represent my home and my country.

  • Mike Worcester

    //“We were one nation under God. The Muslims are into Allah.”

    I used to think that every high school in the state (ideally nationwide) should have in its offerings a course on comparative world religions. Not to indoctrinate, but to educate. Now I am becoming convinced that adults need one also.

    • kennedy

      World religion is required coursework in Minnesota school district 623, as is US History which includes the constitution. Reading some of what these kids write would give you hope for the future.

  • Al X

    Articles like this only reinforce the perception that all of Trumps supporters are hicks. While he may have a lock on that demographic, he wouldn’t have won without the support of many other white collar professionals. My brother, who lives in suburbia with a pool, voted for Trump. It makes absolutely no sense to me as he has made a living for the past 15-20 years hiring Mexican laborers to shingle roofs for him, while his wife works for a multi-national ag conglomerate that is wholly dependent on free trade. Shooting themselves in the foot as far as I can see, but nothing like the brothers in the article.

    • MikeB

      Yes. A lot of Trump voters are very affluent. And I’m sure many of them have similar attitudes as the Jacksons. Good point.

    • Rob

      Cue the phrase: Voting against their own interests.

  • Mike Worcester

    //“I feel that if a Muslim woman wants to move into this country, she needs to leave her towel home.”

    Would he say the same to Mary Magdalene if she wanted to come here. Because she certainly wore a head scarf, as did many of her contemporaries. Or does he feel the need to tell Amish women to take their head covering off? Or Hutterites? Or certain Eastern Orthodox traditions who also have that as a part of their teachings?

    • Will

      Sounds a lot like what Obama said about conservatives when he said “they” cling to their guns and religion.

      • Jerry

        Conservatives don’t cling to guns and religion?

        And I don’t remember Obama ever signing an executive order taking away someone’s guns or their religion, but keep making your false equivalencies.

        • Will

          I don’t, I own a shotgun and use it to hunt once a year and I’m not all that religious, I haven’t been in a church in years.

          • Jerry

            I thought you considered yourself a moderate.

          • Will

            I am a right leaning moderate, but many here would put me into the conservative category.

      • Heb Ienek

        Bingo

      • Michael

        Obama didn’t say that about conservatives, he said it about working class voters in small industrial towns decimated by job losses, he also didn’t say “guns and religion” he said guns or religion or antipathy.

        Now it wasn’t the smartest or nicest thing to say, but it wasn’t aimed at conservatives.

        One article with the quote can be found at Slate — http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2012/09/romney_s_47_percent_vs_obama_s_cling_to_guns_or_religion_which_gaffe_is_worse_.html

      • RBHolb

        Sorry, I must have missed something. Is Obama President again? If not, what does his remark have to do with this discussion (apart from “See? Obummer did it, too!”)?

        • Will

          To point out the hypocrisy of those on the left, they get so upset with ignorant people on the right who generalize large groups of people but don’t own up to it when their side does it, no I’m not deplorable.

          • RBHolb

            I see. Now I know why Obama confiscated guns and Bibles.

          • Will

            He did propose ideas around gun control.

          • KTN

            And he actually expanded gun rights at the federal level – didn’t know that did you (not surprising). Soon after his first inaguration, he signed into law a provision allowing firearms to be legally carried in National Parks, thus opening up millions of acres formerly off limits to guns. of course the terrorists at the NRA would never admit to this expansion, but that’s the facts.
            So much for the scary “he’s comin’ to take our guns” meme.

          • Will

            AR-15, he tried to made it illegal.

          • KTN

            When? Did he succeed? What’s your point?

          • Will

            He’s still pushing for it as of a few weeks ago:

            http://freebeacon.com/issues/obama-pushes-new-gun-control-op-ed-harvard/

          • KTN

            Can he still effect law, whoda thunk.

          • Will

            Your argument was that he wasn’t doing this…or attempting to…

          • Heb Ienek

            No, that’s not the facts. That was Bush’s EO. Obama defended it, not because he liked it, but because he wanted to preserve the rule making procedure. Chalk one up for the terrorists, eh?

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/16/AR2009021601151.html

          • KTN

            Did Bush sign the law or Obama. Doesn’t really matter who started it, but rather who closed the deal. In this case, Obama put pen to paper, but nice try

            Of course it was the hapless paranoid Republicans who inserted the provision (called not ironically – Protecting American From Violent Crime Amendment) into the Credit Card Fairness bill. The Pres could have vetoed the entire bill, but he held his nose, and made it law for the fearful to carry in National Parks.

            Here’s the bill if you care to actually educate yourself.

            https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/house-bill/627/text

            Does it ever get old being wrong?

          • Heb Ienek

            He kept it to preserve the process. Like I said. Your suggestion that Obama did anything to strengthen gun owner rights of his own volition is laughable.

            Does denial ever get too tiresome?

          • KTN

            Who cares about volition, the Constitution certainly doesn’t. The Pres signed the law. Before his signature, guns were illegal in Parks, after his signature – legal.

            You seem to be unclear about how a bill becomes a law. There is a great primer at Sesame Street called “How a Bill Becomes a Law. It’s educational, and has a catchy beat, you should have a look.

        • Will

          Reference point for liberal hypocrisy.

          • RBHolb

            So it was “See? Obama did it, too!” Pointless, in other words.

          • Will

            No, Obama did it and the media didn’t care, the left didn’t care and it didn’t get reported as a national tragedy. Now Trump does it and it’s the end of the world. That’s exactly what I’m saying, that’s the definition of hypocrisy!

          • RBHolb

            So what? Does that mean we’re supposed to ignore what Trump did? “Golly, gee whipperkins, Trump is trampling all over basic American values, but we didn’t react appropriately to an arguably comparable thing Obama did. I guess we had better keep quiet.”

      • Rob

        Have you checked in on what the MN Repub legislative leadership is proposing re: guns? Talk about clinging…

        • Will

          I thought you were worried about Republicans actually punishing illegal protests…crazy idea.

  • Boy, (certain) Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are going to be sorely disappointed to find out that they actually haven’t been worshipping God for many centuries. Either that, or this guy might just be ignorant

  • Postal Customer

    “We were one nation under God. The Muslims are into Allah.”

    Where do you even begin with that?

  • Kurt O

    The whining about Clinton losing the election even though she had more votes overall needs to stop. Like it or not, the election rules are what they are. The Republicans’ strategy was to take advantage of the loopholes created by the Electoral College system. They’re good at tax loopholes, so go figure.

    The system is the same at it was 16 years ago when Gore lost to Bush. It’s unlikely that a Constitutional amendment would have been possible, but more states could have passed laws to tie their electors to the national popular vote.

    It all comes down to artists vs attorneys. Scripts and artistic productions lost to laws and using a business strategy.

    • Sam M

      Criticizing the President does not equal whining about Hillary losing. Are they disappointed? Sure, but they have every right to criticize him. Saying they have sour grapes doesn’t advance the dialogue.

      • Kurt O

        Neither does Madonna saying she wants to blow up the White House, but there you go.

        Like it or not, Trump is your president. Period. He was elected against the better judgement of the popular majority (including myself). All the criticism in the world can’t change that. A 0% approval rating won’t either.

        If Aston Kutcher or Meryl Streep want to fix things maybe they should go beyond criticism and do something tangible. In the time it took for a pithy criticism they could have told people to donate to the ACLU or NAACP or BLM. They could have passed the hat around and got a couple million on the spot. Throw up a Kickstarter for outraged viewers and get big $$ to pass on to organizations that can actually do something.

        • The ACLU raised something like $34 million since Saturday night.

          • Michael

            Venture Capitalists were doing matching on donaitons to the ACLU. See http://www.avc.com for one blog entry.

          • Rob

            Abso-freakin’-lutely awesome! (full disclosure: ACLU member since 1972)

  • Jerry

    What really scares me about Trump’s actions is that I think they will hasten the radicalisation of the people he is targeting, which will incite attacks. And I think he would welcome the attacks because they would provide an excuse to grab more power.

    • Jerry

      And don’t know if enough is being done to stop it, at least from politicians. Those on the left are speaking up, but it seems that moderate democrats are too worried about appearing to be centrists. Moderate republicans are too busy revelling in the schadenfruede to realise the actual danger to the country. And of course, people on the far right are loving it.

    • Veronica

      The facts and science suggest that yes, it will increase attacks.

      • Jerry

        Radical Muslim terrorist groups couldn’t have made a better recruiting tool if they tried.

    • Rob

      Yup. Welcome to the kakistocracy.

    • Will

      Tell the media and those on the left to calm down and we can have a reasonable conversation.

      • wjc

        Shouldn’t the conversation have come before the EO? Those of us who believe Trump made us less safe 1) need to speak up and 2) don’t need to be told to calm down. Trump and conservatives don’t want a conversation.

      • Jerry

        Maybe once you stop being blinded by your schadenfruede you can see the real damage that is being done to our country

        • Will

          Same damage done in 2011 when no one spoke out.

          • Jerry

            Have you seriously not been paying attention this past week? You must have, you’ve commenting on everything he has done, saying it’s no big deal. But eventually a series of little erosions of the principles of American Democracy add up to the destruction of the whole. But keep telling yourself everything will ok, and maybe for you it will be. But not for the woman denied access to healthcare, not for the immigrant families who are seperated from each other. And not for Americans who concerned about the damage being done to the trust in the free press and electoral process. But hey, as long as you’re ok, who cares?

  • Will

    This is a 90 day stay, calm down, this isn’t forever. Trump wants to get a handle on what’s happening, he likely has intelligence about these countries and wants to be 99.9% sure on this issue before allowing people in. I’ve never seen an issue so overblown and deceptively and hypocritically reported on in my life.

    I didn’t even vote for Trump and I don’t necessarily even agree with his actions here but wow, so much overreaction!

    • rallysocks

      Perhaps he could have gotten a handle on it had he done some prep work prior to Inauguration Day.

      • Will

        He said he was reacting to intel.

        • Rob

          That would be a first.

    • Heb Ienek

      Just wait until he announces his SCOTUS pick tomorrow; this issue will dry up like a leaf in autumn.

      • Rob

        I gotta get me some of whatever you’re smokin’.

        • Heb Ienek

          To quote a well known troll: Yawn.

          • Rob

            You’re confused on the troll concept, and you don’t have YAWN rights, as you’re merely a yawnee. Get your own material.

      • Will

        That’s the issue, if everything is a crisis then nothing is.

        • Heb Ienek

          I’ve got the popcorn if they have the bail money.

    • Rob

      You’re right; I don’t know why virtually every leader and every human rights group around the world is so bothered by this.

      • Will

        And they didn’t utter a word in 2011, that’s the definition of hypocrisy.

        • Rob

          I believe the paucity of reaction in 2011 is explained by the vast differences between then and now, and that these differences have been articulated quite well by several other posters. Hence, no hypocrisy is extant.

  • Tyler

    It’s taken 3 elections to happen, but the Internet finally popped Flyover Country’s bubble.