Should Target take action to keep rifles out of their stores?

In the wake of gun rights advocates bringing rifles into Target stores in Texas and several other states, the retailer suddenly finds itself in the middle of an apparent battle between them and people who want it to prohibit guns in stores.

Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, which has previously lobbied Chipotle and other merchants to prohibit guns in their stores, has asked Target to also do so.

The gun rights organization Open Carry Texas has a photo of an activist in a Target store, with an assault rifle slung over his shoulder. The group contends that it would be a bad idea for Target to ban guns.

“I wouldn’t feel safe taking my family into an establishment where the only person potentially armed is a criminal,” said Tov Henderson, a spokesman for the group.

Henderson said Open Carry Texas is trying to persuade the Texas Legislature to allow people to legally carry handguns in the open.

In recent months, restaurant chains Chili’s, Starbucks, Chipotle and Jack in the Box have denounced open-carry displays after armed men gathered in their stores.

Today’s Question: Should Target take action to keep rifles out of their stores?

  • KTN

    What a bunch of pathetic cowards. Walking around with a long gun looking like clowns (albeit without testicles apparently) they must feel very proud. And some of them have children too, which means that level of stupidity moves to another generation. God given right my ass.

    • chrismalllory

      So, your argument consists of calling people insulting names?

      • KTN

        What names should I use: patriot, brave citizens, intellectual. I call it as I see it – these people are losers in every sense of the word, and they need to be called out for their complete lack of judgement.

  • kevins

    There is no rational reason to carry any weapons into a Target store. OCT and other open carry groups are simply asserting their power in a perverse and dangerous way, and their attitudes toward the intersection of firearms and civilized culture is childish and distorted. Firearm safety is the rational approach, and bringing guns, either long or short, to a public business is both unnecessary and contradictory to reasonable safety concerns.

  • PaulJ

    Target should make it the government’s problem.

  • C. K.

    Don’t let the extremes of either side determine how you do business.

    • RobinMavis_AHGET

      Target should ask their guests how they feel about it. That’s how they should decide. If their guests don’t want the guns there, then they should ban them. They are after all in business to serve their guests. If the guests stop coming because they don’t like guns there, then if the company wants to make money they should listen to their guests.

  • Max

    Yet another example of government overreach on private enterprise.

    • Gayle

      Please explain. Thanks.

  • IApiskie

    If I notice that someone is packing, I leave immediately, even if my basket is full. Actually, I do a great deal of my shopping online, so that I can avoid this situation.

    • Starquest

      I’d go one further. Bring your full shopping cart to the customer service area and tell the manager. Then walk out. This will get their attention.

    • Reality122

      And I bet you are the first to label people that carry guns as being paranoid…

  • Gayle

    Defies any sort of logic or reason. These are nothing more than a bunch of paranoid bullies. It certainly provides an excellent open view disguise for anyone with the intention of shooting up the store. No wonder so much of world is afraid of the crazy America.

  • Darkdruid

    I believe in gun rights but this is just a bunch of idiots asking for attention. You know you’ve gone too far when the NRA released a statement condemning this type of activity.

  • Darkdruid
  • CJ

    This is so ridiculous — these attention- seeking clowns need to stay home to play. Do “stand – your – ground” laws apply if store owners feel threatened?

  • Jim G

    Yes. Target should keep rifles and the men who carry them out of the their stores. For once, I agree with the NRA. As Moylan notes in his article:

    “The National Rifle Association also has denounced such demonstrations as “downright foolish,” not to mention counterproductive.”

    In Ukraine, armed men with loaded rifles basically used this same tactic to destabilize the country. What is the difference between a group of armed men gathering together in places of business and an armed militia? Not much…In addition, your are putting your life into the hands of these armed men whose good judgement is already suspect.

    • chrismalllory

      You put your life in the hands of government employees. I trust a citizen over a trained liar any day of the week.

      • theoacme

        So, NRA members are illegal, non-citizen immigrants from the Islamic Republic of Iran or the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea?

  • Starquest

    “How can we, or the store’s employees or law enforcement, possibly know if they are good guys or bad guys?”

    Well, that’s simple. Just have all Target employees carry guns so they can defend us from the bad guys. Oh, crap, wait. What if a bad guy dresses in a red shirt and khakis and carries a gun into the store?

    Hmm…help me out here. There must be a solution to that problem that involves more guns. Anybody?

    • George

      The goal of the gun makers – and by default, their lobbyists, the NRA – is to sell more guns. Best way to sell more guns to the “good guys” is to first sell more guns to the “bad guys.”

      Like most things, this is ultimately about profit. The NRA is ginning up fear and using their members as to advance the gun makers’ goal.

      There you go … more guns.

  • Jamie

    I understand the desire to bring some attention to gun rights issues, but I don’t agree with their methods. This is like celebrating hunting rights by having a partially skinned deer on a trailer complete with gut pile and driving through town honking, or celebrating gay rights by garishly dressing (clothing optional) a large contingent of people and having a parade, or protesting a war by burning an American flag, or protesting oppression of women by baring your breasts in a mosque – all of which has been done, but does more to unify your opposition than to create a meaningful discussion.

    • Starquest

      Wait. Tell me again how bringing rifles into Target is like celebrating gay rights.

      • Jamie

        http://streetcarnage.com/blog/gay-pride-pictures/

        Tell me how the guys with the top hat and thong, or the hula hoop, or the flamingo headdress didn’t alienate someone who was on the fence or potentially only a little supportive of gay rights. Do you really think they were greeted with open arms and helped advance the discussion? No, they look like freaks – just like a group of guys carrying rifles through a non-sporting goods store do. I’m sure both groups of people are wonderful when not on their soapboxes, and I’d share a beer with either.

        • Starquest

          Do those top hats have a 30-round clip?

          • Reality122

            30-round magazine. You sound ignorant when you interchange words like clip and magazine when they are not synonyms.

          • Joe

            He deserted his language unit by not carrying the 30

        • Joe

          Please, tone down your language, “flamingo” is my trigger word and I find it alienating. Does that link lead to porn or something?

  • Sarah

    Maybe I’m naive, but I just can’t wrap my head around this. I can assure you I wouldn’t be spending my money, or bringing my family into Target or any other store that allows random people to walk around with loaded rifles hanging off their shoulders. That fact alone makes me question the sanity, and intentions of these people. And I am supposed to support their cause and thank them because they might protect me and my family?

  • Joe

    Bless their hearts.

  • Claudia

    I will never shop at Target if they allow guns in their store. I truly question the mental state of anyone who needs to carry a long rifle, assault gun or whatever slung over their shoulder into a store.

    • Reality122

      So you don’t shop at Target then, correct? Target has not banned firearms before and if you’ve been in a Target in the last 10 years or so in Minnesota there is a strong possibility that someone next to you in line or in an aisle had a firearm on them.

      • Starquest

        On its most basic level, carrying a concealed pistol is a little different than openly carrying a semi-automatic assault rifle for purposes of intimidation.

        • Reality122

          I’m not saying I support these guys and I, even as a staunch supporter of gun rights, do not feel compelled to carry a rifle with me. However, to believe that there is all of a sudden a new-found danger because these guys are openly carrying is a bit shortsighted. I don’t think it would be out of line to speculate that were these guys not open carrying a long gun they would be concealing a handgun. I think it is foolish to feel safer simply because you are ignorant to the presence of guns. That is kind of like sticking your head in the sand, no?

          • Starquest

            You miss the point. I know this is really really hard to understand, but: people don’t want to worry about guns. They don’t want to be shopping with their children and think, “Oh, I wonder if that clown in the s**tkickers standing next to me is packing heat.”

          • Jamie

            There it is. Anyone with a gun is obviously less intelligent than you, and is therefore a clown in s**tkickers.

            You, sir, are an elitist who thinks he knows what’s best for everybody based on the experience of one.

          • Starquest

            The point is that guns are not on the minds of everyone 24/7. I don’t think about guns when I’m shopping. The bigger point is that we have the right to live without fear.

          • Adam

            How do you figure we have a right to live without fear?

          • Fed up

            My right to live with out fear trumps your right to openly carry a weapon. Concealed carry doesn’t bother me as the fact that don’t feel the need to show off their weapon speaks of a much higher level of maturity. Sorry Adam, yes I think I have the right to live without fearful, intimidating and provocative actions.

          • Adam

            Last I checked fear is a basic human emotion. One likely feels it’s affects daily. In fact fear has helped keep us all alive since the beginning of time. I’m still unsure where this right to live without fear comes from…

          • Joe

            Most people who live in fear mistranslate Twitter

          • Reality122

            I’m afraid of people that don’t worship a giant spaghetti monster in the sky. By your logic we should ban all religions outside of being a Pastifarian. It is not without merit either. Religion has been the cause of more death than just about anything else on the face of the Earth.

            Hmm…maybe we DON’T have an implicit right to live without fear at all times.

          • J F Hanson

            So tell us–are you familiar with the psych term ‘projection?’

          • Reality122

            Why do they worry about them when they can see them, but not when they can’t? The “danger” is just the same either way. That, my friend, is the definition of irrationality and THAT is what I have a hard time understanding.

      • jakewoodblues

        I do, I’ve never seen open carry at any Target I’ve been to. If I’d’ve seen it, I’dve stopped shopping there. My right to feeling safe, from people who are doing this to shock or indimidate people who don’t agree with them trumps my need to shop in Target.

        • Reality122

          But concealed firearms are ok? Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

          • Starquest

            Concealed firearms are NOT OK.

          • Reality122

            But there are several people posting that they shop in Target, but would stop if Target allowed people to carry firearms. The reality is people have been carrying firearms around those folks all this time. It is foolish that they feel safer because they don’t see the guns and yet they say they shop there. Either they are lying or they are ignorance of reality.

          • jakewoodblues

            That may be true. Call it ignorance is bliss? If I don’t see it, I don’t know to be concerned. Open carry, especially in this case, is a statement that is meant to intimidate. Why else would you carry it in a store or restaurant. Expecting trouble?

            But, as the law stands, do whatever is legal, I respect that. If Target chooses to allow it, I chose to vote with my wallet and shop someplace else where I feel safe.

            If enough people vote with their wallet, than maybe Target will reconsider.

  • RobinMavis_AHGET

    Target doesn’t allow firearms or weapons in their corporate locations. They shouldn’t allow them in their stores. I and my family won’t feel safe as guests with unknown individuals brandishing firearms while we are shopping.

  • Jamie

    Let me throw out the legal ramifications of third party liability, which I’m sure is being bantered about within the walls of Target corporate and many other retail establishments. What if one of these guys had an accidental discharge and hurt or killed someone? Would Target bear any responsibility for that?

    Now let me throw out the opposite side of that coin. What if Target banned all firearms on their premises and some lunatic started shooting up the place (with a gun that was banned from there, because the sign didn’t stop him) and said lunatic injured or killed someone. Has Target, by not allowing their customers to carry a weapon and defend themselves, opened itself up to liability for that?

  • r

    It’s sad that these men with tiny, tiny man parts think that running around with their pathetic guns will give them even an iota of machismo. They’re just advertising the fact that they’re dolts, eunuchs and clowns.

    • Joe

      Tiny man parts? You don’t have to look too closely at the picture to see their massive units. Don’t encourage them to desert their units, they aren’t hurting anyone…

    • Amused citizen

      Interesting, there is no discernible penis bulge in any of the “men’s” pants in any of the pictures above.

    • J F Hanson

      why are you preoccupied with the sexuality of certain people?

  • The adults in the room

    If I were in the store and saw these little dick clowns I would drop my cart, basket, or what I was about to buy and leave immediately. After driving a safe distance away I would call 911 and report what I saw, emphasizing that I felt something bad was about to go down. Hopefully law enforcement would swarm the place and make life uncomfortable for these freaks for a while. A second and third call would be made to the store’s manager and Target HQ alerting them I will no longer be shopping in their store until they stop this nonsense. It’s time for the adults to take control again. A decade of the lunitics running the asylum, or at least obstructing and steering the process away from all logic, in DC has made asinine idiotic behavior almost acceptable now.

    • Corey Bol

      I find it despicably ironic that “the adults in the room” comments begins with derogatory name calling and ends with a call for potential violence against the people he/ she despises.

      • The adults in the room

        Yes, I sort of agree, but feel that strongly by their show of stupidity, not an expression of their civil rights, I said it anyway.

        I do not how ever see any call for violence or even potential violence in what I said. If calling law enforcement to investigate and make sure people acting out against all social norms for the majority of people in not just the country, but the world, is a call for violence, then we have all already lost it.

        • Corey Bol

          Modern police shoot first and investigate afterward. There’s your potential.

          • The adults in the room

            Your paranoia is showing. They absolutely do not! If that is how you really think, then you are proving the point that you do not possess the mental capacity and good judgement to own such weapons, much less be out in public with them.

          • TAITR

            And if you want to walk around looking and acting like a terrorist, then it’s nobodies fault but your own when you get treated like one.

          • Corey Bol

            You’re using superstition and insecurity to justify denial of a civil right. That’s not liberalIism. It’s totalitarianism.

          • TAITR

            I’m confused, that’s exactly what I thought you were doing. I’m not the one who thinks the police and government us out to get me. And I’m not saying take your beloved assault rifle away, I’m saying keep it out of where me and my family shop. I much more fear being shot accidentally by someone there with a gun legally than the minuscule odds of being killed by some madman. The odds of some paranoid thinking another paranoid is about to do him harm cancels out any advantage to having an uber-armed public. I don’t want to be caught in the cross fire of stupidity.

          • Reality122

            And yet somehow defensive uses of firearms each year are several orders of magnitude higher than accidental shootings according to the CDC study commissioned by Obama himself.

            Your fear is not substantiated by actual facts and data. Target has every right to ban these demonstrations (their house, their rules), but it’s unfortunate that they might do so because of irrational fears.

          • Reality122

            Police shootings of innocent people have risen while legitimate violent crime has dropped.

            The Pima County Sheriff certainly didn’t ensure they had the right house when they shot and killed a homeowner that was innocent.

            The Atlanta PD certainly didn’t ensure they had the right house when they shot and killed Kathryn Johnston.

            The FBI spent two years investigating a drug and weapons ring, and
            failed to correctly determine the actual apartment being used when they
            chainsawed the front door and held at gunpoint Judy Sanchez and her
            three year old child.

            The Connecticut State PD certainly didn’t ensure they had the right
            house when they broke in, beat Tomas Torres (breaking his arm) and
            destroyed his apartment and failed to find a single illicit drug.

            The Chicago PD didn’t ensure that they had the right house when they
            busted in, ignored the pleas of Thomas and Darren Russell (16 and 18
            year old brothers) to tie up their dog, and shot the dog. They were at
            the wrong house.

            Broward County Sheriffs didn’t ensure that they had the right home when
            they got into a standoff with Broward Circuit Court Judge Ilona Holmes
            and her sisters family.

            Framington PD didn’t ensure that they had the right house when they shot
            68 year old Eurie Stamps as he lay handcuffed on the floor. The perp
            that prompted the raid had even been arrested 20 minutes before the raid
            and wasn’t a resident of the raided home.

            The Brooklyn PD didn’t ensure that they had the right home when they
            raided Walter and Rose Martin’s home over 50 times. The reason that
            their home kept coming up? The PD used their address to test a computer
            program when it was first install eight years earlier.

            The Minneapolis PD didn’t ensure they had the right home when they burned the leg of Rickia Russell with a flash bang.

            The Hudson NH PD actually fired a random bullet in a 5 am raid prior to
            announcing the raid, then shot and killed Bruce Lavoie when they “saw” a
            gun. The gun wasn’t even held by Bruce Lavoie, nor was it fired. It
            was purchased because Susan Lavoie had been savaged attacked by a
            neighbour twice and they feared that they would return again. The
            reason for the raid? A neighbour claim Robert Lavoie sold a pound of
            pot to a neighbour. The cops found a “small” amount of pot. That
            random bullet barely missed a sleeping son of the victim.

            Dallas County Sheriff’s didn’t verify that the perp was still a resident
            when they shot Doy Vanderburg in a shootout. The perp had moved months
            earlier and was later arrested. Martin, their suspect, was arrested at
            his new address. He was charged with misdemeanor drug crimes and
            released on bond the same day.

            Hays County PD didn’t verify they had the right person when they rammed
            and fired into the vehicle of Miguel Montanez. They at least realised
            it when the looked at Montanez’ terrified face that he wasn’t the person
            they were looking for. According to a “heavily-redacted” report, the
            Hays County police say the tactics were necessary in part “in order to
            maximize safety to community…”

            Las Vegas PD apparently decided that shooting Trevon Cole in the head at
            point blank range was the most effective method for stopping Trevon
            Cole from flushing some pot down the toilet. The shooter claimed a gun
            was withdrawn. No gun was found. The shooter had a similar shooting 8
            years earlier.

            Broward County Sheriff shot and killed Brenda Van Zweitan for the
            possession of prescription drugs after a informant said she was selling
            drugs. She had been robbed two weeks earlier and had a gun for her
            defense.

            Houston PD shot and killed unarmed Pedro Navaro after a cop misfired his
            weapon into another cop on the raid. They were only there because
            someone they had arrest earlier gave that address as the source of some
            drugs. None were found.

            Wharton Texas PD shot 17 year old Daniel Castillo on a drug raid that
            was never vetted. Their suspect? A nonexistant David Castillo.

            Hays County Sheriff shot and killed Rusty Windle when he answered the
            door holding a rifle that still had the safety engaged. The informant
            was a ex-con protecting himself.

            Nassau County SWAT team, on a no name, no address warrant, shot and killed Cheryl Ann Stillwell over two oxycontin pills.

            During California’s Campaign Against Marijuana Planting in the 80’s, the
            Feds raided the Mendocino County home of the Hay’s family. After
            holding them for 8 hours, finding nothing, they discovered that the home
            in question was in Sonoma County, one county to the south.

            Bellport NY PD shot and killed Jose Colon as he emerged from a house
            when a cop tripped on a tree root falling into the cop in front of him;
            the cop in front shot three times. The calls for Jose Colon to drop
            were inaudible because of the helicopter overhead.

            Police in Dekalb County, Georgia conducted a 2:30 am drug raid on the
            home of Bobby and Kathy Bowman. When Bobby Bowman attempted to defend
            his home, one cop shot through a window with closed blinds killing 8
            year old Xavier Bennett. They found 3 grams of crack. Bobby Bowman got
            45 years.

            South Memphis PD raided the home of Jeffery Robinson, a gravedigger who
            lived in a small building near the cemetery that employed him. They
            claimed that Robinson charged with a box cutter, but it was later
            determined that all the evidence was planted. The raid was not vetted.

            85 agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Bureau of
            Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the Forest Service, and the New Mexico
            National Guard conducted a massive early morning raid on the rural farm
            owned by retired florist Leland Elder and his wife Mary Schultz. They
            found, wait for it…flowers. Elder and Schultz asked for an apology
            instead of renumeration, and when rebuffed, found that they had no legal
            recourse due to sovereign immunity.

            In spite of the knowledge of children in the home, police in Snohomish
            County raided the home of Larry and Robin Pratt. Larry was implicated
            in a car theft. When they executed the raid, instead of busting down
            the door, they got a key. When window glass was broken in the childrens
            room, Robin came to see what was happening and ended up shot in the
            neck. She bled to death in front of her six year old daughter. It
            turns out that the informant had lied, and Larry was innocent. The FBI had even warned the police that the informants tips were often unreliable.

            Police setup a fake drug sale in the front yard of Isaac Singletary,
            known in the neighbourhood to shoo away drug dealer from his yard. When
            the cops refused to leave, Issac got a gun. Issac never pulled the
            trigger, was fired upon by the cops, when Isaac retreated for safety,
            the cops followed and shot Issac in the back. The cops never identified
            themselves.

            Police in Bel Aire, Kansas photographed what they thought were marijuana
            plants growing in a resident’s backyard. They showed the photos to the
            local prosecutor, who showed them to a judge. All agreed. The plants
            depicted in the photos were marijuana. Only problem was, they were
            sunflowers. The former four term mayor was the resident. BTW, the
            sunflower is on the Kansas state flag.

            The Venice, Illinois SWAT team raided the home of the current mayor in 1992. It was the wrong house.

            Let’s not forget Berwyn Heights Mayor Cheye having his home raided by
            cops where they shot the dog. The reason? UPS delivered a box of drugs
            to the wrong house.

            Billings, Montana police say the 6 am raid they conducted in October
            2012 was part of an investigation into a suspected meth lab. The
            12-year-old daughter of Jackie Fasching suffered severe burns after the
            SWAT team used a broomstick to drop a flash grenade through a window
            into a bedroom where the girl and her sister were sleeping. Yes, the
            police actually dropped an explosive device into a suspected meth lab.
            They did a great job of planning that one out. Oh, yeah, there was no meth lab.

            A SWAT team in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania raided the home of John Hirko,
            Jr. after an informant claimed to have purchased drugs from him. The
            cops shot Hirko 11 times (9 times in the back), but were unable to allow
            medical attention to be provided because the flashbang they also threw
            in there lit the house on fire destroying it, and burning the body
            beyond recognition. The SWAT team did not have any identifying markings
            on their uniforms, and based on other evidence, the city settled for $8
            million.

            Baltimore MD raided the home of Andrew Leonard. After destroying his
            front door, it was discovered that it was the wrong house. The city
            refused his claim for damages of $1200 for repairing the door stating
            that the cops busted down the door that was on the warrant. Then, when
            the trash collectors wouldn’t pick up the door with the trash, the city
            fined him $50 for a code violation of storing a broken door.

            FBI Agents raided the Richmond, California home of Artesia West as part
            of a drug and gang sweep. They deployed flashbangs. They didn’t check
            to see that Laquisha Turner, a quadraplegic following a driveby
            shooting, was in a wheelchair and unable to move from the room where the
            grenades were burrning. She died from complications from smoke
            inhalation a month later.

            Miami, Florida SWAT fired 123 rounds into the home of 73 year old
            Richard Brown. 9 struck Brown killing him. They had no idea that
            Browns 14 year old granddaugher was hiding in the bathroom. He was innocent. She got $2.85 million.

            Detroit PD lobbed a flashbang into the apartment of the family of 7 year
            old Aiyana Jones. It landed on her blanket, igniting it, just prior
            she was promptly shot by a cop. The cops claimed they didn’t know there
            was a child in the house in spite of toys in the lawn. Oh, yeah. They
            raided the wrong apartment. The perp lived on the second floor.

            San Jose police burned the hand of an elderly woman when they used a flashbang. The perp wasn’t there.

            Colorado Springs SWAT gave 71-year-old Rose Santistevan a heart attack
            when they lobbed a flashbang into her house. She was lying in bed on
            oxygen. No arrest made.

            NYPD gave 57 year old Alberta Spruill a heart attack after lobbing in a
            flashbang. She died two hours later. She was the only occupant of the
            building. They raided the wrong place. The perp they were looking for
            had been arrested two days earlier and was in custody.

            But you’re right….it’s probably just paranoia

          • TAITR

            Over how many years does your dissertation span? And how many are cases where the police “shot first and investigated later”? I only saw possibly a couple before finally getting tired. Now how many accidental gun related deaths in that time? I can find statistics for 2010 where 606 people died in accidental shootings. Seems to be way way more then in your list. I have no idea how many were just injured, but I’m sure it adds significantly.

            Now here is where the real logic comes into play. A person is about to be arrested by the police for what ever reason. The happen to be holding an AR15. The copes not only also have the sane weapon, they also probably have hundreds of hours of actual training on how to use it. Who is going to come out the dead loser almost every time in that scenario? Not going to be the cops. This huge and dangerous misconception that any one or group is going to fight off the tyranny of government is just absurd.

          • Reality122

            You really think cops are that well trained? Explain then how in the hunt for Christopher Dorner they managed to mistake two small Hispanic ladies in a blue Toyota Tacoma for a single large African American man in a silver Nissan Titan. They shot the truck well over 100 times. Ironically, they only managed to hit one of the victims twice while the other was injured by the glass shattering around her. Both managed to survive.

            I find it interesting that you think acceptance of tyranny is less dangerous than those who would fight to avoid it. You would make a good bootlicker.

          • TAITR

            Cops are that well trained, but they are human and capable of error. Just like the military. How many friendly fire or civilian casualties have occurred in our last two wars? And the point is all these people are TRAINED. Are those good ol’boys in the picture above anywhere nearly as trained and disciplined? Doubt it.

            Your “facts” you have been holding onto, to copy/paste in when you get the chance amount to a big steaming pile of nothing to the un-indoctrinated. It only serves to back up the side you have chosen to be on. Reaffirm you faith like a Sunday sermon, but will not convert anybody to your side. You want to see a government out to get you. My only fear is if enough to go to that side it becomes a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, instead if taking the pragmatic approach of citizen involvement in government, loving not fearing your neighbor, and working towards making the world a better place. I and most people to not want to live in paranoia. We do not want to live in a world where everyone us armed and suspicious of the other. Its sad for you that that us your choice, but it’s your choice. As for boot licking? Probably not, but you’ll never know from your bunker out in the woods.

          • Reality122

            You have me falsely pegged as someone I am not. Apparently because I question the government and am exercising my right to civil discourse I am an extremist. The funny thing is that I am a wonderful neighbor and have been very involved in government and I am not alone. Those that you label as extremists in their bunkers are the ones that are responsible for the relaxation of gun laws in this country over the last several years, all done through such pragmatic approaches as calling our legislators and showing up for committee meetings to testify.

            So…either you are slapping labels on people for doing exactly what you preach or you don’t actually support the idea of the pragmatic approach when it comes to opinions you disagree with. In either case the reality is that for all the labels and bad P.R. the gun rights folks have received in the past two years or so, violent crime is on the decline and gun rights are increasing.

  • Corey Bol

    I remember when critics of gay couples sounded like these critics of firearms. Rights are rights. Do we push people back into closets just because customers are “uncomfortable”? When should ‘phobics’ be allowed to dictate rights?

    • KTN

      When those responsible are holding weapons, with unknown agenda. How many of these morons are mentally stable (I would postulate none), and that alone means they are suspect, and their behaviors too. Nobody is taking away their precious guns, but of course that is lost with the gunnuts who feel the 2nd is absolute.

      • Corey Bol

        This only exacerbates the fallible notion that “all are suspects”. Your argument is stereotypical and benign.

        • jim

          well said.

        • KTN

          I think what you meant to say was droll not benign. But which part is stereotypical. The 2nd is not absolute, like all the 10 A’s.
          If you believe otherwise I would direct you to Scalia’s majority decision in Heller. He seems to agree with me, what with his list of guns not permitted.

      • Reality122

        Just curious…what evidence do you have of their mental stability and what credentials do you hold that makes that judgment anything more than bigoted opinion?

        • Joe

          His opinion is not bigoted, just…. extrajudicial….

          • Reality122

            Extrajudicial for certain, but I’m still ok with bigoted considering the definition the ol’ Google box provides.

            having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of
            one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of
            others.

        • KTN

          That’s all I’ve got. Well that and the photo above.

          • Reality122

            There is nothing in that picture that meets any criteria for mental illness in the DSM-V as far as I know. Do you have any real evidence?

      • Assuming every “holding weapons” is potentially a “moron” and lacks being “mentally stable” is like me assuming everyone who owns a car is going to get drunk and kill someone with their vehicle. Ridiculous.

        • KTN

          I didn’t say potentially.
          Yeah, those guys in the photo look like a bunch of Con Law scholars out for a day of shopping. What they did is irresponsible and they deserve being called out for it.
          You are a gun owner correct. Would you bring a long gun shopping at Target – just to show em. Probably not. Responsible owners act responsibly, and these guys fell out of that tree.

          • You said, “I would postulate none”, I inferred you were speaking of anyone open carrying a firearm. You and I agree, what Texax OC is doing, while within their rights, is tactically flawed.

            If you carry an AR or AKM strapped to your back every time you go to Target, that’s open carry. If you bring two buddies along, all sling rifles, look to get photographed and draw attention to yourselves, that’s advocating. I don’t agree with the tactics these guys are using to advocate their position. I assume you and I can agree on that.

    • Joe

      Since about thirteen years ago, thanks to everyone but Russ Feingold.

    • Mr. Reasonable

      Gays are allowed to make the same displays of affection and indications of their sexual orientation in public the rest of us are. This would be the equivalent of concealed carry in my mind…you blend in. These guys have blown off the social norms and have moved into full-blown public intercourse.

      • Corey Bol

        Carrying concealed would be the equivalent to a “closet” gay. Thanks, though, for your kindness.

        • Joe

          What defines a “closet” gay?

        • kevins

          You should look up the meaning of the phrase “begs the question”.

      • Reality122

        So those gay pride festivals and parades are just blending in?

        • Joe

          Pretty well, too. The advent of food and clothing dyes has really brought about this startling development. More as it develops.

    • Tge adults in the room

      Nice apples to banana clips anology. Except yes a gay marriage and life style did/does make a lot of people uncomfortable, but that is really only based on their short sighted limited world view. In no way shape or form can another person’s sexual orientation actually do them any physical harm. The problem is totally in their heads and irrational. On the other hand any sane reasonable person can invision several scenarios where they could come to physical harm or even death letting people run around unchecked with items that were designed to do just and only just that, inflict injury and death.

      • jim

        your fear is irrational. these demonstrators have not shot anyone nor have they violated any law.

        • The adults in the room

          Yet

        • Leah

          But there is the potential for split second accidental harm, including fatalities, much more so than a gay person can even remotely inflict – unless they were the ones carrying the rifle. Fear is rational when it comes to an object that’s sole purpose is to maim or kill, not when it’s dictated by societal or cultural mindsets.

          • jim

            do you have an open mind? google sam harris “the riddle of the gun”.

      • Joe

        There is no such thing as a gay lifestyle, just gay people. Also, I like how your post starts with “Nice apples” and ends with “injury and death” so many stories begin and end like that.

  • Grannycakes

    I don’t think they need to carry rifles around in the store in plain sight like that. How ever I do think those with conceal and carry permits should be allowed to have them, and that makes me feel a little safer in this crazy world.

    • Minnesota doesn’t have a Concealed Carry Permit. We issue a Permit to Carry which allows either open or concealed carry. The fact is, open carry has been legal in Minnesota for quite some time. You don’t see it very often but it does happen.

      • Grannycakes

        Shows what I know about guns. Just hope the “Good Guys” always are allowed to have them.

  • Mary

    If Target permitted people to openly carry assault rifles in there stores here, I would never shop there.

    • Mary

      their, sorry for the typo

      • Jamie

        No, there. Oh, the there there. Yes, their.

    • jim

      i like target but i will avoid south chicago.

    • Target does and always has allowed people that are legally licensed to carry firearms to do so in their stores. Based on your comment, you should have stopped shopping there years ago. By the way, assault rifles have by and large been outlawed since 1934 so you won’t be seeing them around anytime soon.

      • Starquest

        You undermine your credibility when you get pedantic.

        • You have no credibility when you offer nothing that adds to the conversation.

        • Reality122

          What’s pedantic? Calling out the poster’s ignorance of the law pertaining to carrying firearms or calling them out on their propagandizing by misusing terminology in an effort to gin up fear and somehow make the false statement more hard-hitting?

      • kevins

        I think Mary said “open” carry, which is inherent in the original question. Are you distinguishing between the two? It almost seems that you have broadened the issue to justify bringing up your support for concealed carry. No real need to create an argument when none is called for, is there?

        • Minnesota issues a permit to carry. There is no distinction between open and concealed carry. People open carry as well as conceal carry at Target in Minnesota.

          • kevins

            Thanks for that info but I will check it out with my county sheriff, and the county attorney. I hope your opinion is correct in the framework of the law, because otherwise, I would find your arguments here to be untrustworthy, and trust is what the original question is all about. Imagine you wanting unarmed citizens to trust folks with guns in public places, concealed or not, if the carriers were not inherently trustworthy. Trust is priceless, but paradoxically, costly.

          • Please feel free to fact check me. I’m licensed by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension to teach Carry Permit courses. I’m also a Federally Licensed Firearm dealer. I’ve testified before a number of State Senate and House Committees on firearm related issues. Enjoy your evening!

          • I thought I responded but I don’t think it posted. Please feel free to fact check me. I’m licensed by the MN Bureau of Criminal Apprehension to teach Permit to Carry courses. I’m also a Federal Firearm Licensee (dealer). I’ve testified before a number of MN House and Senate committees on firearm laws and issues. Here’s a link to a great synopsis of the Minnesota Citizens’ Personal Protection Act. It will give you the framework of the Permit to Carry laws in Minnesota including the right to carry open or concealed:

            http://bit.ly/1nmSz1l

          • Please feel free to fact check me. I am licensed by the MN Bureau of Apprehension to teach Permit to Carry courses. I’m also a Federal Firearm Licensee (dealer). I’ve testified a number of times before MN House and Senate committees on issues related to firearms as an expert witness.

  • MATT

    I don’t see them as a problem. They want to exercise a freedom we hold in our great country. Let them! I do however have big problem with anyone telling them they can’t. If you don’t like being in a free nation than get out! Many have died so they can do just what they are doing.

    • Starquest

      Put another way, many have died so that we can live without fear. And so we can vocally object to people carrying instruments of death in a department store. As you said, it’s a free nation.

      • J F Hanson

        I don’t know of any Constitutional guarantees for ‘freedom from fear.’ That’s what the antigun groups peddle, since they are fearful. It really is a paradox, isn’t it?

  • chris

    I would not feel safe shopping in Target if people could carry guns there. There is no guarantee that someone with a gun is law-abiding, sober, etc. Also someone else could grab a gun from one of these guys and turn it on anyone in the store.

    • J F Hanson

      The guarantee is that a carry permitee has been fingerprinted and had backgrounds checks–multiple checks–by your local sheriff–as well as taken a course to learn and understand the issues of self defense in MN law–and then, finally, demonstrated a basic proficiency for self defense with a live fire exercise.

      Criminals, OTOH, do carry without you knowing–they simply don’t obey the law.

  • jakewoodblues

    It may be legal to carry guns openly in TX. Many gun extremists believe that this trumps others right to live without fear. In this day of mass shootings, it is not unreasonable for ordinary citizens to feel fear at seeing a long gun carried openly. Especially in a store, or movie theater.

    It is up to the store to decide whether they will allow guns to be carried openly. I, for one will not patronize a business that allows this. Mass shootings are on the rise and how am I to know if an openly carried weapon is carried by a nut or a responsible owner?

  • There are over 65,000 licensed carry permit holders in Minnesota. That’s one in every thirty three citizens. Most of us choose to carry concealed although open carry is allowed as part of the permitting. I’ve open carried on occasion on my way to or from the range, stopping at local stores on the way. Most people don’t even notice and if they did, don’t care. I smile, do my business while being polite, and leave.

    Studies prove that MN Carry Permit holders are exponentially less likely to commit crime of any type than the average citizen. We are trained, know our responsibilities as Carry Permit holders better than most of the general public, and take that responsibility seriously.

    To fear someone that is legally open carrying is simply due to a lack of knowledge. Criminals intent on doing harm do not open carry as they do not want any attention drawn to themselves until they’re actually ready to start committing their crime.

    The fact is, one in every thirty three people around you is licensed to carry a firearm. We’re among you each and every day and there isn’t any “OK Corral” gunfights, or “blood running in the streets”. Here’s a video showing the faces of law abiding citizen firearm owners that legally, peaceably carry both open and concealed:

    http://youtu.be/8h4ZtouvCOE

    • T.S.

      I believe 170,916 was the latest number of valid MN carry permits as of last month.

    • Joe McLean

      Here is another face.

  • Ralphy

    Couldn’t help but notice that package of Oreos proudly featured as a center-piece to the photo. The message is loud and clear.
    How would you respond as a store, theater or restaurant owner if this group walked into your business? What if it was a half dozen young black, Latino or Asian men, or a bunch of Hell’s Angels or Hitler Nation or what looked to you like guys in Taliban attire?

    • Jamie

      What’s the Oreos message?

      I like the Hope for Bacon shirt, myself.

      • Ralphy

        Seriously? In the event you are not baiting by playing dumb, I will explain it to you (though I don’t think for a minute that your question is niavely innocent). To reference a black person as an Oreo is intended to be a serious insult (Black on the outside, White on the inside).

        • Reality122

          It must be VERY painful to see everything in life as racist. I see a guy carrying Oreos to show that he had made a purchase and was a paying customer. Nothing more, nothing less.

          • Joe

            I thought it was a statement against Target and Nabisco at the same time for their noted agenda of “tolerance”. But it must be painful to be unaware of the political boondoggle Target entrenched itself in by hiring Tom Emmer. I surely hope they legally purchased those fine Nabisco products at Target with their individual units fully in tact.

          • Pearly

            Right on

          • Gayle

            Uhuh. Yup. Sure. You bet.
            Out of the 10’s of thousands of products on the shelf, that young man picks the one that happens to be a racial insult and pairs it with an Obama joke shirt.
            Ralphy! What are you thinking?!

          • Reality122

            Ok…black on the outside but white on the inside. If this is in fact a racist “thing” and the guy has some sort of white superiority complex then why on EARTH would he associate Obama with being white, especially considering how diametrically they are opposed on an issue that is obviously very important to these people.

            Please…if you’re going to try SO hard to make everything racist at least somehow tie it into the story. Until then I will feel free to buy Oreos as a white man and not feel guilty because I’m making some sort of racist statement…I’m just enjoying some cookies.

        • David P

          Reminds me of a co-worker who posted a cartoon of President Obama eating a big slice of watermelon and the 1st Lady dressed like Aunt Jemima. When I called him on it, he proclaimed his innocence and accused me of being overly sensitive. I asked if he would share that cartoon with any of our black co-workers, but he declined.
          PS I also volunteer as a racial justice meeting facilitator, and have worked with police departments, the U of M and high schools, among other organizations. And I do see the Obama t-shirt and the Oreo cookies as a racist message in that photo.

          • time2go

            Anything besides watermelon, fried chicken, collard greens, oreos and maple syrup we should keep our collective eyes peeled for in our search for racism in every instance?

    • Pearly

      What about the girl with the SKS behind him?

    • David P

      Since nobody was willing to answer your question, I will.
      If any of these groups, or any group of any description or number, came walking into my business place, or were walking around in my neighborhood, or if I was in a business place and they came in, brandishing weapons, I’d be scared and intimidated. There is no way to know their intentions, so I would play it smart and safe and call the police. This, of course, is likely to escalate the situation, as the police will respond with overwhelming force. What happens next would be up to the group – I can only hope that their collective thinking is wiser than it was when they decided arming up and going for a walk was a good idea.

  • Pearly

    I don’t know what they should do, but they will figure it out. Personally I would never open carry. Heck I hardly ever conceal carry.

  • Joe McLean

    After little more than poking a few holes in some paper, anyone who self appoints to the arena of public carry ought to receive a complimentary psyche eval. They bring with them a frightening and immature expectation of outcome. Armed or not, I don’t want them near me or anyone I care about.

    All my firearm instructors shared a military background. None of them exhibited wild-eyed enthusiasm for weapons I see in gun enthusiasts today. The prospect of shooting at another human being excited none of them, especially those who did so in the line of duty. They maintained a tone that was sober and circumspect. Weapons weren’t a way of life.

    These men never confused small arms training with any guarantee for survival. Live fire drills are no guarantee. I met few people who’ve been there and to a one they admitted that even tested combatants can commit costly mistakes or seize up in the chaos and confusion of a fire fight, especially in an ambush.

    Think school shooting.

    Survivors of armed conflict constitute a minute fraction of all carry permits issued in the U.S., compared to the growing number of civilian permit course graduates eager to relive the OK Corral. Don’t be fooled. I’ve been among this crowd and there is both a public and a private face.

    Ignoring the abundant life spent between these gun milestones paints an incomplete
    picture. Still it’s important to recognize there was no shortage of mentors at every point along the way ready to usher me into gun culture. All I had to do was show up. Beyond that it was my job to form a detached appreciation for the responsibility involved, preferably one on the order of ‘Firearm use is the last resort after all other available defense options, including flight, would fail.’

    In Minnesota we’re just into the second second decade of an experiment. The gun industry is performing it with our lives. The slow encroachement of laws written by gun lobbyists, designed to relax the regulation of firearms, particularly permit to carry, offers anyone never edjucated mentally incompetant and never convicted of any crime the right to concealed carry. That to me isn’t a ringing endorsement.

    Is that the bar we set for ourselves or has a lobby and it’s political accomplices done it to us?

    • Jamie

      To whom would you restrict the right to carry a gun if not the free citizens never adjudicated mentally incompetent nor convicted of a felony?

      • Joe McLean

        LIke is was before. All those things PLUS people who demonstrate a legitimate need for additional protection because of their line of work. Security people, armored car drivers, private investigators, off duty law enforcement. People like that.

      • Joe McLean

        Same as it was before CCW. All that criteria pluse you needed to demonstrate a legitimate need to the local law enforcement that your livlihood required additional protection. For example if you carried large sums of money or other valuables as part of your job; security or licensed private investigators.

        • Reality122

          The application of that standard was never fair or universal. Sheriffs were the responsible law enforcement in rural areas and are accountable to voters making them more in tune to citizen needs. People in towns, on the other hand, are “subjects” of an unaccountable police chief appointed to his or her position.

          • Reality122

            Also, just curious about this…aside from opinion, which you are entitled to, do you have a factual or statistical basis for making your claim that things need to be more restricted? When it comes to the restriction of rights the onus to prove legitimate need for curtailing of rights falls on those proposing the law change. It is not on those with the right to defend their need for such.

          • Joe McLean

            Your opinion and my opinion. It is not about restriction of rights, and by that I will take the leap and assume you’re talking about the 2nd Ammendment. Its a conversation about lawful regulation which is constitutional. Ask Antonin Scalia, re: Heller vs. DC.

            And with that I bid you adieu. Going outside to enjoy life unarmed. Did you read that thugs? I AM UNARMED. Going to run some errands, get some groceries. Totally un armed. No guns or knives. Nada.

            Reality, if that is your real name, I’ll let you know how that goes later.

          • Reality122

            I didn’t say anything about the Constitutional basis of restricting rights. States must allow some sort of handgun carry law, but under current SCOTUS decision that can mean May Issue versus Shall Issue.

            Nevertheless, limiting things to May Issue rather than Shall Issue certainly is a restriction on a right and as such is one that should be justified by more than opinion and the Constitutional legality of doing so. Such is the very idea of liberty.

        • Jamie

          I’m responsible for things that are much more valuable than large sums of money – my family members.

    • Reality122

      You forgot the part about where people getting a permit must undergo a class including a live fire qualification test at the end.

      Anyone that rallies for a law is a lobbyist in your mind it would seem. It’s hard to imagine ever getting any laws passed if people are evil for supporting them. After all, you have vilified the Minnesota Personal Protection Act which was the result not of gun manufacturers lobbying or the NRA, but rather a group of grassroots citizens like Jon Olsen, a Constitutional law professor at Hamline University forming the group Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance. No big dollars, no big names…just grassroots.

      • Joe McLean

        I didn’t forget about the permit class; thats what I refer to as poking a few holes in paper. I don’t recognize this training as adequate.

    • There are over 170,000 Minnesotan’s with legal permits to carry. That’s one in every 33 people in the state. Where’s the “OK Corral” you speak of? Your apocalyptic depiction of the firearm community isn’t supported by the facts. Study shows that MN Carry Permit holders are exponentially less likely to commit a crime of any type than the general public. Your anecdotal stories don’t trump facts.

      The “slow encroachment of laws written by gun lobbyists, designed to relax the regulations of firearms, particularly the permit to carry”, is again a complete falsehood. Since the enactment of the personal protection act, there has been continued lobbying and bills offered up to further constrain legal firearm ownership and carry. I know, I’ve testified before these committees. You’re making things up to support an agenda.

      When you have the facts, pound the facts. When you have the law, pound the law. When you have neither, pound the table and scream. Feel free to continue to pound and scream.

      • Joe McLean

        Here is an image that your poster child in the state house, Tony Badger Cornish, posted on his FB page. Hmmm. Looks like it was taken in Tombstone, AZ. Sound familiar?

        Look, Crucible, if that is your real name, you have an interest in this that goes far beyond personal protection or upholding 2A rights. It underscores what isdriving this discussion. Yours is a profit motive. Thats all this is and that is all it ever will be. You confuse a statistical snapshot and confuse it for with “facts”.

        If bills were passed strictly based on “facts” alone then there wouldn’t be a need for a strong gun lobby in this state.

        • Jamie

          Actually, a strong lobby is required to keep bills from being passed strictly on emotion.

          • Joe McLean

            You’re hillarious. Do you do any live stand up?

          • Jamie

            If you think I’m funny, you should try reading the US Constitution. You’d think it was hilarious.

        • Rather than attempt to dispute the facts you continue to make baseless, false assertions. Your picture isn’t posted so I’m not going to address your attempt to “sideshow” the conversation.

          My side business doesn’t even cover my own training costs so profit is not my motive. I train and advocate. I have a regular full time day job that pays my bills. Again, you should know what you’re talking about rather than continuing to embarrassing yourself.

          The “statistical snapshot”, is twenty years of data. That’s hardly a snapshot. Again, you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about so you make baseless claims.

          Here’s some facts for you. Pew Research and the Department of Justice report a 39% decrease in gun homicide and a whopping 69% decrease in total gun crime over the past twenty years when the legislative environment was largely pro second amendment and prior to the sunset of the so called “assault weapon” ban. Yet, 80% of Americans believe gun crime is the same or higher than twenty years ago. Why? Because gun crime makes for salacious headlines and sells copy. I bring this up, again, because facts trump unsubstantiated and unsupported opinions. There are more firearms in circulation and more carry permit holders than ever and yet gun crime continues to plummet. That flies in the face of all assertions that law abiding, citizen Permit to Carry holders are somehow a threat.

          • Joe McLean

            You’re like the Robin Hood of gun advocacy then right? Do you wear green tights?

          • Joe McFat

            I heard you were leavin’

          • Joe McLean

            I heard your dumb.

          • Really? That’s the best you can do? In the face of facts you take the coward’s way out, name calling. Feel free to keep pounding the table and screaming.

          • Joe McLean

            Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only son of God?

          • Joe McLean

            Ok. What color are your tights then?

          • Joe McLean
          • What that person did is illegal. They are a criminal and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Permit to Carry holders are not, by definition, criminals. Without any further facts, I’m going to assume that it’s an illegal gun. The serial number on the firearm will trace it to the rightful owner. I’m betting it’s stolen as law abiding citizens, with carry permits wouldn’t be this stupid. Again, it’s supposition on my part. We’ll see how the facts play out. Regardless, it’s not germaine to the discussion of legal carry.

          • Joe McLean

            A permit to carry holder hasn’t been convicted of a felony. You’ll never be certain they’re a saint or that they won’t commit a crime after they purchase a gun and get a permit. Do you have a crystal ball? I can hear you reaching for your stack of stats now, but you can’t predict with any degree of certainty that someone who hasn’t been edjuduicated mentally incompetant, in possession of a high powered high capacity semi automatic won’t at some point snap? Everyone has limitations. You place an enormous amount of faith in citizens you don’t even know. I don’t trust people I don’t know like you do. So your answer is to arm everyone? Nice world.

          • You’ll never be certain that someone isn’t going to get drunk and drive a car and kill you. Every day “you place an enormous amount of faith in citizens you don’t know by sharing the road with them.” You’re exponentially more likely to die in a car accident than by firearm.

            The facts you so want to dismiss stand on their own. Legal permit holders are exponentially less likely to commit a crime than you are.

            I never said arm everyone. You did. Again, you make baseless claims and false accusations. You can’t get past your emotion. If people don’t want to be armed, I’m fine with that. It’s their right. My right is to be armed despite your irrational fears.

            Oh, and people adjudicated as mentally incompetent cannot legally own a firearm. Again, you refuse to deal in fact and want to play the “what if” game.

            Keep wailing and flailing. It’s amusing.

          • Joe McLean

            More than likely, those people with whom I share the road trained and tested in order to become licensed motor vehicle operators. Its a lengthy process, not like with the 8 hour course to apply for a carry permit. Drivers have to carry proof of insurance too, also not like a carry permit holder. They also have to register their automobile with the state. And 2015 is predicted to be the year that gun deaths overtake automobile deaths in the US. Lets see how that plays out.

            Hey while you’re not fetishizing guns, consider an adult ed course. Learn to read for content. No wonder the side business is losing money.

          • So, now you go off topic because you can’t defend your position with any merit. We’re talking licensed permit carry holders here, not “gun deaths” which are committed overwhelmingly by criminals with illegally obtained guns. You’re doing the typical, “move the goal line” arguing because you are unable to refute my facts. If you want to play that game, please cite the source of your 2015 “prediction”.

            You’re totally making stuff up. My side business isn’t losing money. You’re the one with comprehension issues. Again, you’re left with nothing but name calling. When you’ve got a valid argument, come on back. In the meantime, I’m out.

          • Jamie

            I think we can all agree that was some twisted idiot that should be locked up.

          • Joe McLean
          • Joe McLean
          • So what?

          • Joe McLean

            So what? Your man Tony Badger Cornish, fetishizing on FB about the OK Corral. You wrote, Where’s the “OK Corral” you speak of? Just recently it happened in Isla Vista and in Las Vegas. Team NRA attracts lunatics. Losers. Small minded cowards convinced of race wars and apocalypse and oppression by a fascist state. Thats what YOU got little boy.

          • Criminals knifing and shooting innocent people isn’t the OK corral. The perps killed themselves, They’re weren’t killed by anyone else including law enforcement. Your analogy is vapid.

      • Joe McLean

        Oh and when you have sand pound it. Pound sand.

        • Ah, you wave the white flag in defeat. You quite obviously are without an argument.

          • Joe McLean

            I just had better things to do with my time, Crucible, if that is your real name. You are boring and predictable. Your bucket of stats don’t persuade me that more fools with guns in the public square equals a safer society. Never will buy it. So carry on, lunatic.

          • Again, you have absolutely nothing to dispute my arguments so you just spew insults and call names. You really should stop embarrassing yourself.

  • Kaela B

    In case anyone missed this shining gem, one of these “responsible gun owners” left a loaded one in the toy aisle at target: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/target-guns_n_5453164.html

    • TAITR

      The irony would be laughable if the reality want to alarming.

    • Starquest

      C.J. Grisham, president of the group Open Carry Texas … suggested that “despicable” gun-control activists planted the gun.

      LOL

    • Corey Bol

      I suppose you have a serial number off the firearm that could be used to track down the owner? Until then, I hardly believe that a person interested in preserving firearms rights would leave a several hundred dollar, potentially deadly weapon, in a toy isle and it wouldn’t be discovered for several days while sitting out in the open.

      • J F Hanson

        well, there is an update–and Target and the LE community have put up a picture from the security video….

        I’ll bet the guy doesn’t have a carry permit.

    • No, this was not a “responsible gun owner” by definition. It’s most likely an illegal gun. Responsible gun owners know the serial number will be traced back to the owner. You really need to understand what you’re talking about.

      What this person did was illegal and needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They are a criminal.

  • Starquest

    ter·ror·ism : noun
    1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

    • Reality122

      Doesn’t that definition make the Mom’s Demand Action crowd every bit as much a terrorist group as these guys?

      • Joe

        Nothing more scary than two or more people getting together, they could be talking about you!

      • Corey Bol

        Yes.

    • Corey Bol

      Good thing there were no threats of violence.

    • No use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce in this example. Your point is mute.

  • Paulj

    Only women should be allowed to open carry; that’d send a message.

  • Phil

    Absolutely they should. They are a private business and they should do what is in their best interests. The VAST majority of their customers would be uncomfortable seeing open carry in their stores. We have a small lunatic (paranoid) fringe here, no need to bow to them. A person has no right to carry in a private business, Target gets to set the rules here.

  • Cousey

    Yes.

  • Barbara

    If Target allows guns in their stores I will stop shopping at Target. Period.

    • J F Hanson

      They’ve allowed it ever since the MN PPAct was passed, Barbara.

  • Jamie

    If Target were to post signs on their doors saying “Please don’t open carry a firearm on Target property”, I wouldn’t be offended. If they were to post a notice that said “TARGET BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES”, I would be offended and potentially choose to shop more at Walmart and Cub Foods.

    • Joe

      I I probably wouldn’t notice that sign at all and probably walk in with my concealed weapon without noticing it, fully in control of my constitution. They’re everywhere.

      • Corey Bol

        Absolutely.

      • Joe McLean

        Admitting to everyone here you would break the law while carrying a handgun is just *priceless*.

        • Joe

          That wasn’t an admission to anything of the sort. But it was certainly disingenuous because I do not own a gun. What I was admitting to is that I see bans guns signs so much that it doesn’t register with me, and I usually go about my day without freaking out about it (constitution). It’s interesting that you read the word “handgun” into what I said, however… priceless

          • J F Hanson

            boyoboy, are you shopping in LeftistLand? I rarely see them in the West Suburban area.

            In fact, in the last year, I have encountered one of the MN ‘Banished’ signs only at medical facilities and one other business–which was, BTW, a notable ‘progressive’ business.

    • Corey Bol

      Agreed!

    • Joe McLean

      Sweet. I hope Target goes with: “TARGET BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES”

      • Just so you know, “gun free zones” are useless. It is not illegal to carry a firearm, if you have a permit, into a “Guns banned here” establishment. If you are asked by an agent of the business to leave, you must comply, however, it’s not illegal. If you refuse to leave, you can be trespassed. That’s it. If you return prior to the trespass being lifted, with a firearm, you can be charged with a misdemeanor trespass. So, people conceal carry in “gun free zones” all the time. Oh, and criminals don’t give a damn about “gun free zones”. The ones that carry illegally.

        The notable exceptions to lawful carry areas are K-12 schools, federal facilities, the State Capitol (unless the Permit Holder provides written notification to the Commissioner of Safety), child care facilities, correctional facilities/county jails, and military installations. Carry is not allowed at these locations by civilians and those that do will be prosecuted.

        • Joe McLean

          Good lord. Did you play Dungeons and Dragons in your teen years?

          • Wow, just more insults. Stop wasting my time. I’m licensed by the MN BCA to teach Permit to Carry courses. i’m a Federal Firearm Licensee (dealer). I’ve testified on a number of occasions in front of various committees at the State Capitol on firearms and firearm legislation. I’ve been interviewed locally and nationally on firearm legislation, training and related issues. I take my responsibilities seriously and am well educated on matters of law when it comes to firearms.

            I take the time to understand an issue and present my case rather than, like you, asking people what games they played as a teenager because you’ve nothing to add to a dialogue.

          • Joe McLean

            Pop! There it is. From the moment you began writing in this forum, it wasn’t about some lofty natural rights argument or 2A protection. You just showed the world, boss.

            I’m wasting your time? Actually, I am providing a public service by outing you for what you are. I am interested in what motivates people like you.

            I’m wasting your time? Really it’s not like someone is holding a gun to your head, right? But you can’t help yourself. We could hit each other over the head all day with statistics, but that would be a waste of MY time. I learned that lesson long ago. You are driven to rationalize your anti-social preoccupation with guns because deep down inside you are scared and cowering without one.

            You dismiss the human condition in favor of statistice like Mr. Spock. Fine. Those statistics you cling to are cold comfort to the families of the Sandy Hook. According to you they shouldn’t feel emotions when they step up to debate gun violence, right?

            A law abiding gun owner set the stage for that cruel slaughter. An insidious gun industry convinced her she needed high power, high capacity, highly portable semi automatic rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition for home defense. And against what exactly. Was Newton a war zone like, Beruit or Mosul, or Mogadishiu?

            Precisely because she appeared so ordinary to so many, Nancy Lanza best illustrates how treating all law abiding citizens the same no longer works. Prevailing political attitudes paid for by the consumer gun industry place the rest of civil society at the mercy of baffling, unpredictable and increasingly lethal human behavior.

            Too many basic failures must be eliminated before we can even begin to tackle the complex combination of gun over-saturation and broken mental healthcare in the United States. The first moreso than the latter.

            The legacy of gun violence has left deep scars in my family. Emotional ones. The effects will take generations to wash away. The difference between us is that I am man enough to cop to emotions. You are still a little boy.

          • Bingo! The full throat rant of a person owned by their emotions, devoid of reasoning skills, and completely incapable of presenting a comprehensive argument. I offer my credentials because you doubt the validity of my statements. It eats you alive that I know what I’m talking about. Cyabye.

          • Joe McLean

            You offer your credentials because without them you are nothing.

          • J F Hanson

            Just out of curiosity, Joe–why the insulting and demeaning comments scattered throughout your responses?

            Have you spent too much time in uncivil forums? MPR specifically doesn’t allow that kind of commentary; read the guidelines.

  • Trish

    Absolutely! I will not shop Target if they allow guns. What is the purpose? To the gun carriers – where are your fears coming from that make you feel you must carry a weapon on a shopping errand??

    • Reality122

      They already allow guns and have for the 10 years we’ve had the Minnesota Personal Protection Act. You better retroactively stop shopping there.

      • Corey Bol

        Here, here!

    • Corey Bol

      Reasonable question. I’ll pose this question: Do you really believe they’re carrying out of fear, or possibly carrying openly with the intent to sensitize people to the sight of a firearm?

      • J F Hanson

        I suspect it is to desensitize people to the sight of firearms in public. If the comments here are any indication, far too many people simply go with emotional reactions–mostly fear / negative–and that is a form of hopolophobia.

        A desensitization regimen should work with that problem, but the politics of this issue make even the admission of hopolophobia problematic for many people.

      • theoacme

        I believe that they are domestic terrorists, probable traitors, and an immediate and irremediable threat to my life, and the lives of my family.

      • GunladyinPA

        They were protesting! They wanted to raise awareness of laws in some states that allow the open carry of rifles but not hand guns. Crazy law, isn’t it? They can lawfully carry a weapon large enough to kill a moose, but not a hand gun. Not the BEST way to protest, I give you.

    • J F Hanson

      Well, Trish, given that a nominal 3% of the MN population now have carry permits, and that Target has never NOT allowed guns (they follow state law), how many times have you stood next to another shopper who is carrying a firearm?

      Tell me what you look like, and I will nudge the next time we are together in the checkout.

      • Joe McLean

        Kinda creepy, J F.

        • J F Hanson

          send me your description too, Joe. I’m all for equal opportunity….

      • GunladyinPA

        That is the deal. Because they don’t SEE a conceal carry they feel all safe and warm and cozy. If they KNEW that one 3 shoppers is probably armed, they’d never leave their houses again! It’s not JUST at Target. We conceal carry in grocery stores, Wal-Mart, restaurants, etc. You’ve just never known they were there.

    • Trish, as has been stated, Target has allowed guns, as do the vast majority of retailers, for years here in Minnesota. 179,000 people in Minnesota have a permit to carry. That’s one in every thirty three citizens. We shop with you each and every day. We don’t carry out of fear. We carry in the highly unlikely but real event that someone imminently threatens us or another with great bodily harm or death. I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen cabinet, not because I’m afraid of a house fire but in the highly unlikely but real event I have a fire in my home.

      Oh, and those “guns banned here” signs serve no purpose. Criminals don’t care about signs and Permit Holders are allowed to carry in those establishments. If an agent of the business asks them to leave they must comply. However, no crime has been committed. If you’re trespassed and return prior to the expiration of the trespass order you can be charged with misdemeanor trespass. There are very few places where carry is completely forbidden, K-12 schools, daycare, federal buildings, correctional facilities / county jails, and military installations.

      The fact is people carry firearms around you each and every day. Permit holders are exponentially less likely to commit crime of any time than the general public.

      • Joe McLean

        Permit holders are exponentially less likely to commit crime of any time than the general public? Where the hell did you come up with this?

        • Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

        • J F Hanson

          Studies done show that the typical permittee is about five times less likely to do any sort of criminal behavior. At least that’s the one I reference; other studies indicate up to twelve times less likely.

          IIRC, the NYTimes has an article about this–Google it and see.

        • GunladyinPA

          In addition, you’re likely unaware of how many hundreds and thousands of crimes are PREVENTED each year by conceal carry citizens. Why? because the media doesn’t print them. It’s a not news worthy, in their opinion. Making the general public unaware.

    • GunladyinPA

      Trish, they were PROTESTING. They were trying to raise awareness around open carry laws for hand guns. In the process, they made this mess. Pro-gun groups around the country have asked their members to stop this practice, because it is counterproductive.

  • Alan

    Yes. And they should be allowed to ban concealed weapons.

    • Reality122

      They are able to do both those things in Minnesota…

    • Corey Bol

      How would you enforce such a ban?

      • theoacme

        Metal detectors, immediate revocation of Target Red Cards, Spot biting sensitive parts of the male intimate anatomy…lots of ways 🙂

        • Reality122

          So only men carry firearms? Or only men deserve genital mutilation via a dog?

      • GunladyinPA

        You can’t. People will do it, because they are law abiding, but the criminals will carry right through the sign and rob the place. Just saying.

  • Austin

    I think if these were truly gun rights activists they would not make such a big display of their choice to carry a gun; this debate probably wouldn’t even be happening. It all seems very counterproductive.

    • GunladyinPA

      It is…

  • Robert Lee Parker

    So let’s see… If everyone had a gun, and everyone can see it, we’d all be safer?

    • Corey Bol

      Not really. However, that which is done secretly, may have been done secretly for nefarious reasons. A concealed weapon generates a greater element of surprise.

      • Starquest

        As opposed to these clowns with their assault rifles over their shoulders — that’s done for, what, educational reasons?

        • J F Hanson

          Keep in mind these are not assault rifles, Starquest.

        • GunladyinPA

          They were protesting. They want open carry laws for hand guns, because their states allow open carry for riffles but not hand guns.

  • ben

    Doesn’t “open carry” just paint a target on a person telling ‘the bad guys and gals’ kill me first???

    • Corey Bol

      Yes. In my opinion.

    • GunladyinPA

      Nope. it tells the bad guy, you aren’t going to point a gun in my face and get away with it. I won’t be a sitting target.

  • CT

    Target should ban guns on all its premises. It’s time retail corporations took a stand on this issue. Imagine a “black Friday” sale where people already behave poorly if people were armed. Our government representatives are not taking substantive action because campaign contributions rule the roost.

    • Target has had Permit to Carry holders shopping alongside you for years including on black Friday. Where’s the “black Friday” massacre you’re so convinced will happen? The “OK Corral”, “blood in the streets” fallacy is just that. 179,000 Minnesotans have a Permit to Carry. That’s one in every thirty three people. We walk among you each and every day. The fact is we’re exponentially less likely to commit a crime than the general public. These are the facts, not the hysteria everyone is peddling.

      • GunladyinPA

        Well said. People afraid of people who have permits to carry are naive to think they are safer because they can’t see a gun. It’s all about perception.

    • Tim

      Who would go shopping on black Friday without a gun? Nuts!

  • Brandon Mark Paumen

    I find it hugely interesting that many people are saying that they will never shop in a store that allows open carry, for perfectly legitimate reasons. On the other hand, there are commenters that say they would never shop in a store that bans open or concealed carry, again for equally legitimate reasons. Almost seems like a business in this position loses no matter what…

    • Joe

      You mean the gun business?

    • Tim

      I think they always win when they stand up for civil rights. Businesses have the right to ban guns, just like they have the right to ban people of a certain race, but if they did, everyone would consider it to be very wrong! Banning guns is legal, but just as morally wrong.

      • Ralphy

        Not sure which country you are posting from, but in the US, a business cannot ban people of a certain race. It’s not just smart business, it’s constitutional law.

  • Amy Blumenshine

    Clearly it’s bad for a business to be embroiled in this controversy. Does anyone else wonder if competitors of these businesses have provoked this controversy? Why these places and not others? Are Texans so rich they can just walk around all day with their guns on display? I suspect someone is making money from targeting these enterprises.

  • James Ahler

    When I see a gun in Target, I’m ending my shopping & walking out & I’ll tell customer service why. Money talks. Take your money elsewhere, & tell them why, until they stand up to these gun freaks.

  • Joe Musich

    What are these gun totters missing in their character ?

    • J F Hanson

      In can understand their POV for the Texas issues; done properly, it seems to be a reasonable civil protest.

      However, given how well our MN carry law works here, I do not think it is appropriate.

      And, quite frankly, is does not seem to be a part of the Minnesota Nice character many of us share, regardless of our personal POVs about firearms.

  • Edgar

    Target should be rifle free until they start stocking live whitetail deer.

    • theoacme

      For .22 rifles, squirrels, rabbit…no large guns at Target, as they can’t stock wildebeest, lions, tigers, and bears (Cabela’s and Joe’s for those).

  • Betsy

    Target’s customers deserve fear-free shopping. Do not allow firearms to be carried into your stores!

  • Daniel

    I don’t think gun rights activists are different than the rest of us. When we label then with pejoratives, or regard them as misfits, we’re simply avoiding their core issue.

    Meandering around in public places with a riffle slung over one’s shoulder, is I assume, symbolic of some larger, deeper issue. I don’t know what that issue is, but they’ve been successful in getting attention. I assume those who deviate from conventional social behavior, behavior based on trust, are by their display implying they would use their rifle against any who threatened them.

    Almost everything carries with it a price. Those who choose to move through society armed with deadly force are asking others to pay the price for their choice. That cost for me, is insecurity. I feel physically insecure rubbing shoulders with a stranger in the meat aisle, armed with a rifle supposedly meant to safe guard his life. And I don’t feel any better knowing there are thousands of people walking among us who have been issued a permit to carry lethal force hidden on them. When was it that I, and my neighbors, became so malevolent, that our mere presence became a threat to others?

    There is nothing Target sells me that warrants my knowingly risking my life.

    Good by Target.

    • GunladyinPA

      What people fail to grasp, is that these people were trying to raise awareness to the fact that in their state while it’s legal to carry a long rifle in public, it is illegal to open carry a hand gun. However, their protest was highjacked by the misguided Moms Demand Action, who live under a false premise that gun-free zones are safer. How many robberies, muggings, rapes, and car jackings were prevented by those gun carriers? You are naive to believe that no gun zones make you any safer. Statistically speaking, we kill more people with autos, hammers, and clubs in the USA than guns.

      • KTN

        Its funny how the protest angle gets played. Back in the late 60’s the Black Panthers were also protesting, buy walking, quite legally, the streets carrying long guns. Well, as you can imagine, the white folk got a little scared, so they appealed to a higher authority – Governor Reagan.
        He along with the NRA established pretty harsh gun control laws (huh, who would have thought the NRA would have been so keen to write gun control laws).
        These idiots (and I use that term in the pejorative), lack any semblance of common sense by their “protest”. They are small men, who need to compensate for a lack of something, but smarts it is not.

  • Yanotha Twangai

    The sheer volume of comments on this question demonstrates once again that it’s impossible to have a rational conversation about guns in America, because zealous ideologues can be counted on to hijack the debate and spout their usual talking points ad nauseam.

    • Yanotha Twangai

      And if, as someone who has posted a lot on this topic, you read that comment and say to yourself, “Yeah, those guys should cut it out,” you’ve missed my point.

    • ComeHereOften?

      The fact that we are having a mostly civil discussion on the issue disputes your premise.

      • Yanotha Twangai

        And the fact that so many of the posts express obvious contempt for opposing views, a thin veil of politeness notwithstanding, belies your assertion.

        • ComeHereOften?

          Joe McLean and Starquest have gone over the edge a little bit. Also theoacme’s comment just above here accusing anyone who carries a gun of being ready to lynch people by the thousands. Otherwise, I think the thinly veiled politeness is working rather nicely for such a hot-button topic

  • Sarah

    I don’t want to go to Target if there will be people carrying guns to make a political statement. I don’t feel safe bringing my kids into an environment like that. I will shop elsewhere!!

    • theoacme

      What I am afraid of is a lot of the people who carry guns to make a political statement may have supported the Ku Klux Klan when they “made a political statement” by lynching a black person, or thousands of them…

      …and Tony Cornish would make his appropriate political statement by giving them an open season permit to kill all DFL’ers in Minnesota, and the Congressional Medal of Honor, at a lavish ceremony at Wooddale Church.

      • Reality122

        Nice inclusion of racism where it doesn’t exist. Perhaps you would like to also blame Bush?

    • GunladyinPA

      Sarah, those people are protesting. And while I hear what you’re saying, the fact that you feel less safe is because of your lack of experience around guns. The people who open carry aren’t criminals. They are law-abiding citizens who carry for another reason. Maybe they work in a security field, maybe they are vendors who go into “less than desirable areas”, or maybe they carry money with them and use their weapon for personal protection. Whatever the reason, if it’s legal, they are within their rights. You might want to make note that all the mass murders you read about in the news, all took place in gun-free zones. Those are places where law-abiding people don’t carry guns, but the criminals do. it’s ironic, but you might want to ponder that for a minute. Open carry, whether it makes us uncomfortable or not, is a deterrent to crime.

      • KTN

        “You might want to make note that all the mass murders you read about in the news, all took place in gun-free zones.”
        Except the ones that happened on public streets, you forgot about those.

  • davehoug

    In all states Target is required to follow state law. If you don’t like Target following state law, get the law changed. Target is no different than the local coffee shop in its legal rights and obligations.

    • Jamie

      That being said, in Minnesota, home of MPR and this blog, Target has the right to choose to ban guns in its stores. As I stated yesterday, I hope that they would choose the middle ground by requesting that no one open carry in their stores. While I absolutely respect the rights of citizens to carry a firearm, I also absolutely respect the private property rights of Target to deny the carrying of firearms on their property.

  • GunladyinPA

    Asking Target to not allow open carry in their stores, is the same as hanging, “Please come rob us,” signs. It would be far better if those individuals protesting would recognize that this form of protest is not accomplishing their goal, and is making others uncomfortable, and would stop, as pro-gun groups have requested of their members. That said, people who feel unsafe in a store where law abiding citizens are carrying, need a reality check. Statistically speaking, people who resist crimes with guns have a better chance of survival than those who do not. The media doesn’t publicize the hundreds and thousands of crimes PREVENTED by private citizens each year. It is naive to believe that you’re safer because you can’t see a gun. The fact is, you’re more likely to be mugged, robbed, or car-jacked because the criminals don’t see a gun. They read those no gun signs, and walk right in the door to rob the place and many times, hurt others in the process.

    • Josh Martin

      People that walk around with a gun are more likely to have an accident with a gun then people that don’t carry a gun

      • Reality122

        That’s a pretty obvious statement. It also doesn’t lead to any conclusions about overall safety of a person.

      • J F Hanson

        That is simply a truisim, Josh–e.g., along the lines of “if there weren’t cars we would have no auto accidents.”

    • KTN

      Wow, really thousands – that’s a lot. Care to offer a citation or proof. Or like happened in Seattle, a young girl with pepper spray took care of a situation where the NRA always thought only good guys with guns could.

      • J F Hanson

        Well, last year Obama ordered the CDC to provide an overview of information about firearms. It came out in May, 2013–and Obama promptly dropped it, as it was objective in its points.

        Slate did a very good overview of that report–and here is what they had to say about the crimes prevented by the use of firearms:

        7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report.

        here’s the link to the Salte overview; read all ten points.

        http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

        • KTN

          Thanks.

  • Josh Martin

    I don’t see any logical reason for walking around a Target Store with a semi automatic assault rifle. These folks obviously have issues. I would appreciate it if Target would take a position of asking people to leave their guns in their cars or at home. They are not needed in the store.

    • J F Hanson

      these are not assault rifles, Josh.

      • josh martin

        close enough. what other practical purpose would they have in a target store other than to intimidate or assault?

        • J F Hanson

          don’t be silly. see a firearms lexicon for the definition of an assault rifle.

          • Josh Martin

            J F, what is the practical reason for bringing these guns into a Target Store? I own two rifles and two shotguns for Deer, Ducks, Geese, Pheasants and Grouse. I can’t imagine walking around with a gun other than when hunting. I don’t understand the purpose of these individuals other than an attempt to intimidate… unless they are just paranoid?

          • J F Hanson

            The practical reason for the OCTx people is to specifically protest the Texas laws. As such, it is a civil rights protest, then, and I at least understand why they do it.

            I own more-than-a-few firearms–but a disclosure: I am not a hunter because I no longer enjoy killing animals for my food, for the sport of hunting, etc., etc. As you may have seen from my other posts, I do have a carry permit and consider carrying a concealed handgun pretty much a normal routine. So, instead of a hunter, I am a firearms ‘enthusiast’ and some sort of firearms armchair activist–e.g., the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, IOW.

            I can believe you don’t understand why these people carry guns–I too grew up in a strong hunter culture: my mother took me duck hunting when I was ten months old, carried in a backpack, my father and all uncles and cousins were / are hunters. Hunters are, AFAICT, pretty myopic about the reason for their firearms: it is a tool for a very specific purpose. I suspect the key to understanding my POV is to simply acknowledge that there are other people who enjoy firearms for different reasons. Most people can accept the notion that we have an a priori right to self defense.
            I do think your notion that they are just paranoid is a bit of projection–e.g., were you to do that, your mindset would be to intimidate. I can well believe you don’t want to do that.

            Their stated purpose is to hopefully call attention to their particular cause–the ability to openly carry handguns in Texas. Having said that, however, I do think they are insensitive to the larger issues of overall public opinion–so I wouldn’t do it, myself. I don’t care to call attention to the fact I am carrying, for any number of reasons, I guess. And, if you consider the number of responses here, in this discussion from the ‘average citizen who is simply oblivious to issues of personal safety except from a kneejerk, fearful viewpoint, and particularly so with regard to firearms. The MSM hate campaign on them has worked.

            So, there you have it–a long-winded response to your question. There is a practical answer–they choose to use a rifle for self-defense–but I personally do not consider that an overall solution, given the pr nightmare it has generated.

          • Josh Martin

            I appreciate your point of view and the tone in which you presented it. Thank you.

          • J F Hanson

            thank you.

          • Reality122

            The are making a statement of protest, however foolish it may be. If you are intimidated by a lawful protest in which no harm is done to anyone then the problem lies in you and not the protest itself.

          • Josh Martin

            I didn’t say I was intimated. I don’t think their statement of protest will work, but it is Texas I guess.. so maybe

          • J F Hanson

            You’ve outed yourself, Josh.

            Either you own the firearms you list here (i.e., in the post I am responding to), or you don’t –as you stated elsewhere.

          • Jamie

            I think one of the many limitations of Disqus has your browser attributing comments to Josh that were actually made by someone else. Refresh the page and that’ll change if it’s the case.

          • J F Hanson

            I suspect that was the case–and I will remove my statement.

            Thanks.

          • josh martin

            I own 308, 7.62mm, 12ga, 20ga. Where did i say i didn’t?

          • r

            Definition of an assault rifle: “Overcompensation for tiny, tiny man parts.”

          • J F Hanson

            You have your terms mixed up–what you are demonstrating is psychological projection.

            Perhaps you should consider what Freud had to say about firearms: “ A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

            That seems to fit better with your preoccupation of ‘man parts.’

          • Joe McLean

            Don’t be drawn in by J. F. Hanson and this obsession. High power, highly portable, semi automatic rifle with combat load clips and design features that mimick battle field versions all have the same chilling effect, especially when you’re just shopping at Target to get back to school supplies and one of those OCT cretens pops up shouldering one.

          • High power? Combat load clips? You’re demonstrating your total lack of knowledge about firearms and continue to embarrass yourself.

          • Joe McLean

            Ok, Kevin, eveyone in this forum gets that your an overly obsessed gun geek. No need to pound that over our heads any more.

            I apologize if my total lack of firearm knowledge is so apparent. But why then does someone with your mad skills bother responding to a lightweight like me?

            You’re all over the board, man. You demand I not waste your time then you return like the sun with a teenage smack down.

            Seriously, pull yourself together. Haven’t you better things to do with your time? The Dungeons and Dragons comment was a taunt but now I am starting to wonder.

            I think the missing piece for you is self restraint. Otherwise you would have pursued a career in law enforcement, like mall security. This character defect prevents you from walking away like a man. It’s not your fault that you’re terrified about what others will think. Its ok.

            But that does not give me a warm fuzzy. Because you’re out there carrying, testifying and enabling other people, maybe even others like you, to carry, too.

          • Fantastic! You’re an admitted “light weight”. You don’t know what you’re talking about so your response is to attempt character assassination, baseless, and uniformed. You make things up about my motives, character, heck even my career aspirations and toss them out there as truth. Again, if you have anything to add to the conversation at hand, feel free to respond. If you’re only aim is to distract by lobbing grade school level “taunts” (again you admit to baiting tactics rather than honest discourse) then please move on. It’s boring.

          • Joe McLean

            Back again? I know the working end of a gun, Kevin and thats all I need. That and you’re an NRA tool.

          • You just can’t help yourself can you? You just can’t admit you don’t have any argument. Just more insults.

          • Joe McLean

            Yup. Tool.

          • Joe McLean

            Its frustrating for you isn’t it? I won’t give you the thing you keep begging for? An opportunity for you to fling some stats and talking points. What a complete NRA mouth piece you’ve become.

            Here’s a image you can dispute all you want. The OCT boys were wearing your jersey, Kevin. They’re on your side. Comfortable with that?

            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=570495353068389&set=a.300767940041133.70846.300719666712627&type=1&theater

          • Do you have a point? I didn’t think so.

          • Joe McLean

            More of your peeps, Kevin? This is your Frankenstein moment. I’ll bet your feeling like a proud father.

            http://www.mynews3.com/content/specials/crimetracker/story/Two-Metro-officers-killed-3-others-dead-in/D9ijUJ5li0WVolLrKpXz6A.cspx

          • What does this have to do with open carry by law abiding citizens? Nothing.

          • Joe McLean

            Everything. Its an undercurrent that has swept under plenty of dimwits like yourself. You are a pathetic tool, unable to think for yourself. You have to be spoonfed what to think. It is YOUR cultural moment, Kevin. This is your legacy. Own it little boy.

          • ROFLMAO!

          • Joe McLean

            Is that all you have?

          • It’s all you’ve earned.

          • Joe McLean

            I’ve earned the contempt of an NRA mouth piece. You’ve earned this:

            http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/las-vegas-shooters-bundy-ranch

          • Feel free to keep talking until you’ve got something to say.

          • Joe McLean

            Here’s a team mate of yours.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAArbMxCERw#t=81

          • Have any original thoughts or just “cut and paste” logic? Yeah, I thought so.

          • Joe McLean

            Is that all you got, little boy?

          • It’s about as much as you seem to be able to process.

          • Joe McLean
          • Joe McLean

            Brain chemistry does not equate to quantifiable increases in security. A handgun purchase from a pusher like you produces an immediate shot of endorphins; an altered sense of reality. It fades rapidly.

            The FBI’s 1994-2003 stats on Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed with Firearms offers details about the distance between victims and firearms. Of the total number ( about 450), 72% occurred between zero and ten feet; closing distance.

            The numbers for the civilian equivalent are much higher. Civilians had on them fewer loaded handguns, legal or therwise, than their law enforcement equivalents. Fewer still, near zero, routinely trained to react during threat scenarios at 10 feet and under.

            Weapons instructors I knew, men who saw their way to the other side of a gun fight, confided the average impulse shopper who gets a handgun for protection *rarely* sustains a level of proficiency over time that increases theirchances for survival in a gun fight.

            In a 10 foot and under scenario their chances are near 0. In an ambush, cops fare marginally better. Success is largely dependent on luck. The kind of response that *may* swing the odds marginally, requires dedication and perseverance the typical impulse buyer isn’t interestd in.

            Yet in the extremely rare instance that consumer is ever shot or killed, statistically it will occur inside 0-10 feet. Maintaining that kind of alert status with a loaded weapon is simply incompatible with the demands placed on the average soccer mom and dad, school teacher, John and Jane Q. Public. People you are trying so hard to scare with your NRA marketing.

            You teach carry permit classes. Do you train with live rounds landing at or around the student? Flashpots? Glass and debris exploding in their face and eyes? Rapid changes in light conditions? Blood and sweat degrading their grip and ability to fire accurately. Do you inject them with a shot of adreneline so their their chest and head are ponding so fucking hard , their ability to interpret their surroundings is seriously degraded?

            No. You welcome them in someones comfy living room. They parrot some safety rules. You serve a smart little lunch with cookies. You escort them to a nicely appointed environmentally friendly range. They get two forms of hearing pro just to be safe and balistic glasses. You gently coach them as they poke a fews holes in paper, paper that isn’t shooting live rounds back at them, and then you Kevin take their money. Caching.

            You are another NRA mouth piece peddling a *false* sense of security. You are making the public square more frightenend and less safe, not more safe, by indoctrinating eager noobs who have no clue how they’ll respond when shit becomes ugly. But at least you’ve made a few bucks.

          • Again you claim to know how I train myself and/or my students. You’re talking through your ass. You really think that making stuff up about me and stating it as fact give you credibility?

            “A handgun purchase from a pusher like you produces an immediate shot of endorphins; an altered sense of reality. It fades rapidly.” You put this out there as a statement of fact? Hilarious! I’ve changed my mind. Watching you continually embarrass yourself has become fun. Please continue.

            Firearms are used each and every day by civilians in self defense situations. Most often, the encounter doesn’t end up in the firearm being discharged. National media doesn’t cover these events, they don’t fit the agenda. Here’s something for you to have a gander at. This will get ya’ goin’:

            https://www.youtube.com/user/TheArmedCitizen

          • Joe McLean

            I’m sorry. Maybe you serve brownies instead of cookies? Is that better?

            You’re awfully sensitive.

          • Nope, I’m just done suffering fools.

          • Joe McLean

            Gosh. Where was it? I was just reading about unrealistic expectations that the NRA peddles to it’s consumer base. Can you help me out here, Kevin?

            Poor guy never got off a shot BUT at least some permit instructor got his money, right?

            http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20140609/08a3018b-fdad-4a4d-9022-b2e35fb0566b

          • It’s being reported that the wife of one of the slain officers in Las Vegas pulled a concealed pistol from her purse during the ambush. She’s a licensed permit holder. She returned fire on the two whacked perps causing them to flee the pizzeria and run to the Walmart. Hmmm…. how does this fit into your disarmament argument?

          • Joe McLean

            Amanda Miller, was the wife of one of the other “WHACKED PERP” you asshat. Christ you are stupid.

          • Yep, I got it wrong. My bad. At least I admit when I’m wrong.

          • Joe McLean

            Fuck off.

          • That’s the spirit!

          • Joe McLean
          • Feel better now? Your credibility is captured in your final post in the screen paste. You’re a real credit to your cause.

          • Joe McLean

            Oh, ok liar. Spreader of falsehoods. Bawwwwwww. What was that about some permit to carry stopping further carnage in Las Vegas? lolololololol. You are a bonifide ass clown, Kevin.

          • Run with it! Run with it! Let’s see how much mileage you can get out of my mistake. You’re so, so, so vindicated now. You must be so proud.

          • Joe McLean

            You got it wrong? No. You LIED; horribly. You have been hammering away at me accusing me of spreading falsehoods on this site and you have the cajones to make up this concealed carry wet dream and put it out there as a repudiation? You are a make believe human being, Kevin.

          • I’m “a make believe human being”? You’re pressing, really pressing for new and imaginative insults. You’re kinda’ running out of steam.

          • Joe McLean

            By the way, I really get a kick out of spining you up.

          • Not spinning me up in the least.

          • J F Hanson

            well, that may be true if you are hopolophobic, Joe.
            But tell me? Why should some subscribe to your obsession with fear-based descriptions of firearms? It is not normal, nor is it healthy to obsession about myths.
            Elsewhere you’ve characterized yourself as a victim. What happened? Tell us about it, and explain how changing the laws regarding firearms would have changed the outcome for you.

          • Joe McLean

            “hopolophobic?” Hanson, are you really that big of a douchebag? I don’t fear guns. Just eager shitbags with carry permits invading the public square. For the record, I did not refer to myself as a victim. Ever. And that respectfully, that is not open to your analysis. But thanks.

        • Reality122

          Close enough? The BATFE doesn’t accept that as an answer. That’s like saying Ford Fusion on the dealership floor is a NASCAR because they kind of sorta look similar.

          • josh martin

            big ass clip hanging out the bottom is my definition. not sure what batfe is.

    • Mike

      Were they not needed in that movie theater either? Or sandy hook school? Or Virginia tech? Etc… You never know where you will need it. And criminals look for gun free zones so there will be no resistance. If target makes their stores a gun free zone I will not feel safe taking my children there any longer. Same as Starbucks. Same as chipotle. Etc.

  • Kim

    I’ve talked with all of my girlfriends and we overwhelmingly can state that men who are gun nuts are “less endowed” and trying to be macho in any way they can. It’s sad, really, but girls know why these “little men” feel the need to overcompensate with a weapon.

    • You really expect people to bite on this fabrication? Pathetic.

      • J F Hanson

        especially pathetic, given what Freud really said about firearms and the fear of them.

  • JAS

    I don’t know what world these people live in. I feel sorry for them. I am going to choose to not live in a world where I feel I have to walk around a big box store, school, restaurant or a park with a gun to feel “safe”. I have shot guns- rifles and handguns- and enjoy it, but feel no need to own a gun.
    I have found pretty consistenly that the people I know who feel compelled to “bear arms” ironically don’t even live in the parts of the city or country that have crime. It doesn’t even make sense, and how rediculous they are.

  • Mike

    No target should abide by the rule of law. If a rifle is legal to be carried in that state then it should be legal anywhere open to the public. Last I heard target will not be responsible for an individual’s security while visiting their store. So until they take that responsibility, citizens should be allowed to carry a rifle, shotgun, handgun, mace, whatever, in their store.

    • Ralphy

      If I understand your post, you are saying all citizens have the absolute right to carry their weapon of choice in all stores, theaters, schools, libraries, bars, offices, restaurants, stadiums, zoos, playgrounds, beaches, parks…anywhere that is open to the public that doesn’t provide armed security, if it is legal to carry said weapon in the state. Yes?

    • David P

      If guns make the community safer, consider this:
      Death rates by gun per 100,000 people:
      US 10.3
      Canada 2.38
      UK 0.25
      Japan 0.06
      Sweden 1.47
      Spain 0.62
      France 3.64
      Germany 1.24
      Greece 4.76
      Poland 0.25
      Italy 1.28
      Australia 1.06
      Netherlands 0.46
      Philippines 3.73
      Mexico 11.17
      Hong Kong 0.03

      There seems to be a logical disconnect with the argument that we are safer having armed citizens in every store and street. Methinks one’s emotions are guiding the argument, not the facts.

  • Gayle

    I am curious – How are the police or Target security employees (or anyone else) to know if a gun wielding “guest” entering the store is a good guy protecting shoppers or a bad guy hunting shoppers?

  • Joe McLean

    Kevin Vick of Crucible Arms has the gall to acuse people who disagree with him of spreading falsehoods on this site. This is a serious accusation from a self proclaimed certified NRA instructor, licensed by the MN BCA to teach Permit to Carry courses and a federal licensee (gun dealer), too.
    Kevin Vick has testified in front of various committees at the State Capitol on firearms and firearm legislation. A recent quote on this page: “I take the time to understand an issue…”

    This is the face of the NRA.

  • CS

    Great! Now Target is going to start selling liquor. Nothing says “family-friendly shopping” like a store full of drunks carrying guns running in to buy another bottle.

  • Jerror

    Rifle sales, suddenly adding liquor stores in Minnesota locations…. that doesn’t smack of desperation at all. Great ideas, Target. Way to truly innovate.

    No, they should not sell weapons. They’re too accessible as is.

  • Leon

    My teacher mentioned. It. Google it and here is what I see. They also found a loaded gun in a children’s toy section.

    선생님이 언급했다. 그것은. 여기에 구글과 내가 볼 것입니다. 또한 아이들의 장난감 섹션에 장전 된 총을 발견했다.

  • LK

    Google accidental discharges in Walmart enough said. NO GUNS in Target!

  • Richard Zimmer

    Hey im richard and I would just like to add that if open carrying handguns will be prohibited I will have to find else where to shop. Although I see no need in carrying rifles into stores.